MS vs WAR

[NC325iC]

I think we have some people with both now, and i think it would be helpful to get a discussion about them both going. (so i can decide)

Id like to see some pros and cons, maybe some points of view on why one is better than the other, and as its r3v some name calling and insults.

from what i have read:

MS: average cost (?)
Pros:
-Fully adjustable
-MAP Sensor to get rid of afm
-AFR tuning
-accepts wideband
-data logging for easier self tuning
Cons:
-assembly (diy or pay for it)
-wiring
-sensors
-you mean i have to make the base map?
-wtf is VE

WAR: cost $350
Pros:
-Plug and play (with base map pre programmed)
-All stock sensors/wiring can be used
-proffesional product support
-MAF removes AFM (extra $)
Cons:
-no datalogging (cant tune it as easily)
-no wideband support
-afr tuning?


i would really like to know what peoples average costs just on MSing their car is.

id like to see some views from both sides on this, i know it will help me decide what to do and im sure it will help others also.

[StereoInstaller1]

and as its r3v some name calling and insults.

Jesus fucking christ, you are a fucking retard.

Why the hell didn't your Mom take it in the ass instead?

What you should do is find a nice quiet corner somewhere and go fuck yourself.

Good start?

Luke

[zav3n]

what about VEMS?

u know unless your boosting 4 bar your pipe dream isnt gunna work...

[StereoInstaller1]

what about VEMS?

u know unless your boosting 4 bar your pipe dream isnt gunna work...

failure: no insult, no slur, nothing.

[NC325iC]

what about VEMS?

u know unless your boosting 4 bar your pipe dream isnt gunna work...

im confused, is vems only good for high boost or are you talking about something else.

im not trying to focus this around a single engine setup but my setup is NA 3.0stroker

[nando]

the W.A.R. chip is probably better for people who don't know a lot about tuning but want some ability to be able to adjust fuel and timing. Benefits are things like cold start, idle, etc. are already done for you by the factory. Limitations are as you said - no datalogging, no wideband (directly anyway). You are also stuck with the stock coil, limits on the size of injectors you can run, and no real support for boost. $350 is just for the chip, the MAF is extra (and probably worth getting if you already have the chip). No acceleration enrichment is a killer, but not as bad with a MAF. Big HP turbo guys need not apply.

MS gives you a lot more flexibility and potential to extract every bit of power you can out of your motor. But you do have to tune everything yourself - you have to learn everything about how an engine runs, from cold starts to peak VE to injector opening characteristics. However, the benefit to this is it gives you a better understanding of where power comes from, and consequentially what needs to be done to make your motor more powerful/smoother/more fuel efficient - something W.A.R. users will be missing out on.

as far as wiring, meh - the PnP options available everywhere now make that moot. The stock harness is better than 90% of the ones people build themselves anyway. And if you don't want to build one, buy the SMD board (the drawback is it's harder to modify later). Total cost is probably about the same, depending on what mods you do to the MS - you can add wasted spark, sequential injection, PWM idle, bigger MAP sensor, etc. None of these things are very expensive though.

VEMs is also fantastic - built in WB controller, built in sequential fuel and timing, better harness connectors, etc. It costs a little more and the support is a bit weaker. This would be more of a "next step" for people who've already figured out MS and are basically looking for a new project to tinker with, but not for somebody "green" to engine management.

I really don't mess with my MS much at all, unless I learn something new or change something on the motor. The rest of the time I just drive it (30,000 miles so far). And dare I say it's been smoother, more reliable and certainly more powerful than Motronic 1.3 ever was. ;)

Personally, I would feel that the W.A.R. chip would be a downgrade, but I still think it's a cool product and I'm glad they developed it - there are now so many options for tuning there's basically no excuse for the bullshit ebay chips, RRFPRs & hacked up AFMs of the past. There is now a tuning option available to almost every level of enthusiast; only 5 years ago there was basically nothing.

I don't think arguing one over the other has much of a point - if you wanted to learn all about engine managment, your choice would already have been made. If you just want to tinker with fuel and spark but not get in over your head, the choice is also pretty easy.

[lifeiskaos]

/thread.

[NC325iC]

thank you nando, that was great. and youre right, i would rather have MS. (i feel like it would give me more options later down the road too, like if i decide that i want to do some ITBs or something)

My only concern is the first tune, getting it running with relative reliability and without damaging the engine.

[T Verdier]

yeah the war chip is cool for me because i dont know much about engine management. i installed it and it runs smooth and gave me more pull. im only gonna put a little bit of $$$$ into my m20. i dont need to have the ability to tune for itbs, cams, and all of the things that make a built m20, when for the same price i can have an s50.

maybe brody from miller will chime in.

[Liam]

Jesus fucking christ, you are a fucking retard.



Why the hell didn't your Mom take it in the ass instead?



What you should do is find a nice quiet corner somewhere and go fuck yourself.



Good start?



Luke

Now that is the way to tell someone where to get off.

[nando]

thank you nando, that was great. and youre right, i would rather have MS. (i feel like it would give me more options later down the road too, like if i decide that i want to do some ITBs or something)

My only concern is the first tune, getting it running with relative reliability and without damaging the engine.

there is TONS of support for that. The first start of an M20 should be simple if you do your homework (don't put it into the car until you know everything is working, that means using a stim). I got an MSQ from somebody with basically a stock M20 (same hardware/firmware, which is important) and had my car running inside an hour from the time I took out Motronic. It wasn't perfect but it got me to work that same night. :)

I think you'd be hard pressed to damange an M20 N/A. if your fuel and timing maps are even close to sanity it won't be a problem.

[lifeiskaos]

if you decide to go megasquirt, PM me for the .msq file i send with all the plug and play units i sell. it'll get you started and running for sure

[deutschman]

the guys over at miller performance are going to add more features to the war chip as time goes on. i only see the war chip getting better and better.

[LowR3V'in]

MS is great, but you do need to know what happens when you
change something. Like AE or cold start. IMO there is so much e30 support
that you'll get an acceptable daily tune depending how bad you want it. :P

I am not anti-miller or anything!

but using an ostrich2 and tunerpro you
get more features and it's also much cheaper!
You can do real time data logging and injector scaling.

I've just played around with tuner pro on my laptop and it looks pretty slick.
Don't want to disrispect Miller so I'll just say it seems that the war chip needs
more development for the price (but then miller isn't known to be cheap)
NO OFFENSE TO MILLER.

screen shots are from a way better ecu, but you get the idea.



Anyone know where I can play with the war chip software?

[der affe]

well, after a lot of deliberation, i am going to go with the WAR chip and sell off my split second ARC2-a and the ford MAF conversion. right now i am more interested in a plug and play than having to learn about how to tune it from scratch. in time that will change, but for now it will do what i need it to do and more.

by the time i am ready, i may just end up going with a WOLF standalone EMS.

one thing i have not seen in the thread so far is, what is the total cost for a full boat MS. wasted spark, sequetial injectors, ETC. everything. total price with the different sensors, ETC.

from what i have seen it is more than the WAR chip, that is one of the reasons why i am heading toward the chip insted of MS.

are you saying that i can do EVERYTHING in MS for under $599?
if so, where?????? my engine is only going to be worse (actually better) from here. i am putting together a higher comp 2.7 stroker and doing my own head work, once that gets sorted i will be adding the liquid to air intercooled M-90 with 12-15lbs of boost. after i get that and the EMS sorted i will start looking into the M30B3.54 swap with the supercharger on it too. if i can do the EMS once, that would be great! especially if i could reuse my MAF that i already have until i do a
MAP sensor if i can't do it right off the bat.