The death of the American century

[Massive Lee]

This is not about Reps vs Dems. Just about the American vision of exporting Freedom.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/19/AR2010041903936_pf.html

[StereoInstaller1]

Things sure got a whole bunch more complex after WW2, didn't they?

What a shame.

Ozzie and Harriet died a slow and poisoned death. Those days will never be here again. Wonder if it was like this for Rome or the Mongols, or the Vikings?

On a personal note: Lee, seriously, why all the fascination over us?

[87e30]

That article is depressing.

Things aren't SO bad now. Everyone quit bitching.

[Massive Lee]

On a personal note: Lee, seriously, why all the fascination over us?

Don't worry, I don't have any specific fascination for the US. This weekend I watched several documentaries on very varied subjects. I am just very curious on my environement and don't believe in single minded points of views like it is often the case on this "intellectual" forum ;-).

The article above is only one perspective among many others. And I am not trying to challenge some of the members' patriotism. Anyway, the end of the innocence in the US happened in 1972-74 with Nixon's behaviour around the Watergate. That's when Americans have started loosing faith about their political institutions.

[StereoInstaller1]

Hopefully they were challenged far before that...hell, Jefferson had several illegitimate children...by the illegitimate half-sister of his wife!

I dunno, man. I too am a documentary hound, especially on history. Not American history specifically, but pretty much all history, Chinese being a favorite.

Seems to me that any rational person would try to look at their government through jaded eyes. People are only human, right?

[87e30]

The article above is only one perspective among many others. And I am not trying to challenge some of the members' patriotism. Anyway, the end of the innocence in the US happened in 1972-74 with Nixon's behaviour around the Watergate. That's when Americans have started loosing faith about their political institutions.

I'm with Luke, I think lack of government faith has been around for nearly ever. Panama canal wasn't exactly "innocent" as were many other things in our past.

As the government naturally expands and plays a larger role in people's individual/personal lives I think that is when people start to question things.

[mrsleeve]

Oh boy do I waste the time reading that, its from the WA post, I assume there is a huge evil America slant to it

[KenC]

Oh boy do I waste the time reading that, its from the WA post, I assume there is a huge evil America slant to it

It basically says that we've worn out our welcome in international affairs/interventions.

I'm a liberal, and I thought it was pretty sensationalized.

[mrsleeve]

It basically says that we've worn out our welcome in international affairs/interventions.

I'm a liberal, and I thought it was pretty sensationalized.

Thats what I figured, I appreciate your candor, I will pass on this one then. That last sentences show there may be hope for you yet ;)

[Massive Lee]

So..... MrSleeve. I guess you refuse to hear any point of view that differs from yours... Right? Reading or hearing a different point of view doesn't necessarely mean you have to agree and it could even give you more argument supporting your initial perspective. What are you scared of?

[KenC]

So..... MrSleeve. I guess you refuse to hear any point of view that differs from yours... Right? Reading or hearing a different point of view doesn't necessarely mean you have to agree and it could even give you more argument supporting your initial perspective. What are you scared of?

I agree.

The article is only a few hundred words anyhow.

I try to read from as many varied sources as possible... except Rush haha.

I think it's healthy to have your ideas/ideals challenged. I'm actually in the middle of a book of Ayn Rand essays right now.

[mrsleeve]

Lee Ken,

Not one bit afraid to see a opposing view point, Seems when ever some one posts something you guys disagree with that is linked from fox you shove it into the corner and berate the source even when the same facts are reported on CNN

I get enough of evil America articles and news from a plethora of other sources. I flip through the NYT web site, I watch the BBC most nights, even float around on MSNBC, CNN, both tv an websites, USA today, the list continues. I dont get my news solely form fox and the WSJ like you all seem to think.

I am sorry I decided to pass on a article that just rehashes countless others that I have seen or read in the last few years, months, weeks.

Edit: there at your request I have read it and what utter garbage. Not worth the paper it was printed on. Yes ken way over sensationalized and I love how we point to Koera and Nam as utter failures and not give the real reasons as to why we did not have a resounding victory, putting a chain on the dogs of war is the problem, its the politicians not the US military. Going to go to war, going to commit US lives and materials then take the hand cuffs off and let them do their job!!! We have the finest equipped, best trained and most professional military in the world, you let them do what they are supposed to do with out the Chain around their necks, look the fuck out!!!!

I like how hes elevated Wilson to some kind of national hero and thinks BHO's world apology tours are some kind of positive thing for the rest of us. the real problem is that people actually read and believe this kind of shit and feel that its a true representation of actual history and the way the world works. Its been twisted and 99% of fact left out of it, this article is nothing more than the koolaid in the trough.

[rwh11385]

Luke, do you really have to ask that? The 51st state is obsessed with US whereas we don't really notice them.

But for cereal, of course the world was fond of us when they needed us. And some parts still need us, or at least our money or help. But people take that for granted, as well as other things, and don't want to take the influence we want to have in the world because they don't always agree.

Anyway, in the end, globalization and international business has spread our influence abroad, and one way or another encouraged western market in even the most communist of places (China). Is that not something to be happy about? That instead of being terrified about Nukes as much or all out war for domination of resources, we are trading with most nations and worrying about competitive advantages? It mentions they thought America would run the world - but doesn't its business practices now do?

So we're fighting a scattered force in a difficult terrain with no real targets to smart bomb from Nighthawks, and a huge hill to climb to re-establish order in a place so long absent of it. But look outside of the that and see what influence the US has had on the world, even if the world doesn't take the time to thank it. The world is a smaller place and has more civilization for more people in more places, with a middle class growing in China and India among other places. Sure, Africa is still an issue, that may be helped someday and the middle east has problems... but things seem better now than they were before.

[Hallen]

Don't worry, I don't have any specific fascination for the US. This weekend I watched several documentaries on very varied subjects. I am just very curious on my environement and don't believe in single minded points of views like it is often the case on this "intellectual" forum ;-).

The article above is only one perspective among many others. And I am not trying to challenge some of the members' patriotism. Anyway, the end of the innocence in the US happened in 1972-74 with Nixon's behaviour around the Watergate. That's when Americans have started loosing faith about their political institutions.

No, not really. That's when the media found out that they got better ratings if they sensationalized and editorialized rather than if they just reported.

The American has never fully trusted government, not even the framers of the constitution did. What has transpired in the last 40 years is that our politicians have gradually become worse and worse as our government grew bigger and bigger. It was started by FDR and it's not stopped since. If anything, fear of another great depression has driven much, much more than Nixon did. It gave government even more of a reason to meddle with the economy. Nixon, he was just the first president to be "outed" by the media. Ever since then, that's all the media cares about. That's not completely a bad thing, but it isn't all good either.

The American dream is dying, but not for the tripe that that article promotes. It's dying because too many people depend on government for their livelihood, weather earned or on the dole. Too many people rely on government to tell them what to think. There is a general lack of the forthright, can-do attitude coming from the little guy that won WWII for us.

There is a loss of hope, not because things are that bad, but because no matter how hard you try, government will make it impossible to excel because it isn't fair to the other guy (who probably never tried). There is a loss of hope not because big business is stealing America but because Government can be bought by big business. There is a loss of hope because this malingering cancer called government is sucking the life out of people, oppressing their dreams and supplanting them with useless demagoguery. There is a loss of hope because of the fucking morons at the Washington Post who vilify the American dream as racist and fascist.

The dream is that all are created equal and all have the opportunity to achieve their dreams. The dream is a very human dream and it doesn't involve the assistance of government, it involves the soul of each individual. Government is not the end state, it should simply be a sparse framework that allows us all the maximum amount of liberty to achieve our goals.

People like that idiot at the Post will never understand that.

[markseven]

No, not really. That's when the media found out that they got better ratings if they sensationalized and editorialized rather than if they just reported.

The American has never fully trusted government, not even the framers of the constitution did. What has transpired in the last 40 years is that our politicians have gradually become worse and worse as our government grew bigger and bigger. It was started by FDR and it's not stopped since. If anything, fear of another great depression has driven much, much more than Nixon did. It gave government even more of a reason to meddle with the economy. Nixon, he was just the first president to be "outed" by the media. Ever since then, that's all the media cares about. That's not completely a bad thing, but it isn't all good either.

The American dream is dying, but not for the tripe that that article promotes. It's dying because too many people depend on government for their livelihood, weather earned or on the dole. Too many people rely on government to tell them what to think. There is a general lack of the forthright, can-do attitude coming from the little guy that won WWII for us.

There is a loss of hope, not because things are that bad, but because no matter how hard you try, government will make it impossible to excel because it isn't fair to the other guy (who probably never tried). There is a loss of hope not because big business is stealing America but because Government can be bought by big business. There is a loss of hope because this malingering cancer called government is sucking the life out of people, oppressing their dreams and supplanting them with useless demagoguery. There is a loss of hope because of the fucking morons at the Washington Post who vilify the American dream as racist and fascist.

The dream is that all are created equal and all have the opportunity to achieve their dreams. The dream is a very human dream and it doesn't involve the assistance of government, it involves the soul of each individual. Government is not the end state, it should simply be a sparse framework that allows us all the maximum amount of liberty to achieve our goals.

People like that idiot at the Post will never understand that.

There's has to be a way for me to buy you a beer...