AutoX Part/setup Questions

[Northern]

Car: 1990 325iS
Poly mounts/bushings everywhere
GE coilovers 450/650 rates
Koni Sports (stock length)
GC Race plates/RSMs
offset CABs

New: 205/50/14 R888's


The car is driven 60mi daily to work and back, but I'm attempting to become more competitive, not so much in any specific class/PAX (currently in DSP) but more so in how fast my car is comparted to the FTD.

The car corners very well most of the time (when I was on street tires) and was very predictable, although I spent most of the time over driving the tires and getting sideways a little more than I really should. The R888's will be a nice addition I hope.

Looking for suggestions/feedback on my autox setup for a number of things.

1: Swaybar(s): I'm running all OEM bits, but I do have a 25mm IE bar and GC m3 droplinks, but I'm not sure if the 25mm bar will be too much, especially with the m3 droplinks.
Also, what should be done about the rear bar? stock? bigger? disconnected?

2: Spring rates: Should I look into going any higher than where I'm at now? would 500/700 make enough difference to bother?

3: Brake Pads: I'm running hawk HPS which are terrible for performance and feel. Before, I had Hawk HP+, but they were embarassingly loud to drive around with. What sort of streetable autox pad options are out there?

Any other suggestions related or not are appreciated.


Pictures for viewing:

[Jaxx_]

assuming that:
tire pressures are the same all around
camber and tire pressures have been matched
you are at a neutral state of turning(not entry or exit, no throttle)
have no rebound or compression dampener adjustment (are the konis adjustable)

and you are:
spending a lot of time sideways and it's not because you're working the wheel like a handsaw(that is weighting and unweighting extremely quickly and not smoothly), then you need less rear bar, or more front bar.

or:
you are understeering you need more rear bar or less front bar.

small tweaks can be made with tire pressures once you get in the ball park, but you need to decide how the car should handle first. In my experience E30s are fastest when they oversteer slightly, but are mostly neutral. This is also personal preference, depending on your technique. I find that a neutral car is easy to manipulate into a various amount of situations.


As you know, you should evaluate spring rate and sway bars together as they are directly related when it comes to turning.

I know you said other feedback is appreciated, the driver mod is the most crucial. If you're not in the ball park of CSP miatas (~103-105%) something probably isn't right. Additionally, the R888 won't be a competitive tire in open class. You need a full slick to be "serious."

Next time you're out at an event have someone who is quick in an FR car drive yours and see how they do.

[1991E30M42]

It sounds like the car has plenty of upgrades over stock and should be plenty fun.

Question. How long have you been autox'ing?

IMO, if you haven't been AX'ing for over 4 years you have plenty of learning to do.

TIP. Dont change anything but tires and JUST CONCENTRATE ON DRIVING. LEARNING.

[Northern]

assuming that:
tire pressures are the same all around Yes
camber and tire pressures have been matched Somewhat. I adjust the camber plates to add as much camber as they will, and the wear/fresh spots on the tire post-run looked good compared to what I've read.
you are at a neutral state of turning(not entry or exit, no throttle) Some of the longer corners I will stay on the throttle and end up slightly oversteering through(not drastically though), on the corner.
have no rebound or compression dampener adjustment (are the konis adjustable) My konis are rebound adjustable, adjusted one-1.5 turns from full soft all around.

and you are:
spending a lot of time sideways and it's not because you're working the wheel like a handsaw(that is weighting and unweighting extremely quickly and not smoothly), then you need less rear bar, or more front bar.
While I do unbalance the car sometimes, I can fix that with more seat time. The majority of the time spent sideways is from pushing the car past the point my tires will grip (Kumho KU31 cheap summer tires until next event)

or:
you are understeering you need more rear bar or less front bar.
I had one bad run where I understeered straight through a corner, but that was my fault.

small tweaks can be made with tire pressures once you get in the ball park, but you need to decide how the car should handle first. In my experience E30s are fastest when they oversteer slightly, but are mostly neutral. This is also personal preference, depending on your technique. I find that a neutral car is easy to manipulate into a various amount of situations.


As you know, you should evaluate spring rate and sway bars together as they are directly related when it comes to turning.

I know you said other feedback is appreciated, the driver mod is the most crucial. If you're not in the ball park of CSP miatas (~103-105%) something probably isn't right. Additionally, the R888 won't be a competitive tire in open class. You need a full slick to be "serious."

Next time you're out at an event have someone who is quick in an FR car drive yours and see how they do.

All 3/4 cars that commonly get FTD are SM/SSM cars running R888's, along with most of the other guys. I don't really know why they're so popular here. Mine are takeoffs from one of their cars, but still have enough tread/rubber to last this season at least.

There are 2 or 3 miatas running STR, which ran 3 seconds faster on a ~1min course in the first event. Results aren't up from last weekend, but I was much higher in the overall times.

I feel like my best course of action is to do a few events with the R888's, see how the car feels with rubber that is a little more legitimate, and come back to these questions after I've adapted to them.

It sounds like the car has plenty of upgrades over stock and should be plenty fun.

Question. How long have you been autox'ing?

IMO, if you haven't been AX'ing for over 4 years you have plenty of learning to do.

TIP. Dont change anything but tires and JUST CONCENTRATE ON DRIVING. LEARNING.

This is my first full year aside from 3-4 events last year and rallyX in the winter the year before in my iX. I definitely have lots of learning to do, and have never claimed otherwise. I agree with you on that point, but I'm not going to stop playing/tinkering with my car.

[matthugie]

This is my first full year aside from 3-4 events last year and rallyX in the winter the year before in my iX. I definitely have lots of learning to do, and have never claimed otherwise. I agree with you on that point, but I'm not going to stop playing/tinkering with my car.

Ok, having been in a very similar situation over the past couple years, here is my $0.02. Change your tires, but leave it at that for now. At this point there is a lot more time to be had in the way you run the course and drive your car than there is in suspension tweaks. Have more experienced people ride with you, and get rides with them as well. You will fare much better overall by first mastering your car as it is then making adjustments based on your driving style.

[Northern]

Ok, having been in a very similar situation over the past couple years, here is my $0.02. Change your tires, but leave it at that for now. At this point there is a lot more time to be had in the way you run the course and drive your car than there is in suspension tweaks. Have more experienced people ride with you, and get rides with them as well. You will fare much better overall by first mastering your car as it is then making adjustments based on your driving style.

This is a fair point. I feel like the tires should make a huge difference and will probably change how the car behaves altogether.

That being said, I've wanted an e36 rack forever. Now that I have all the parts sitting here, I'm not going to hold off. There are a few things similar to that, like replacing the crappy brake pads, and shorter front struts for suspension travel.

Other than that I'll try to do the smart thing and follow the advice you guys have given thus far.

[matthugie]

Oh, definitely do the e36 rack. It is by far the best thing you can do, especially for autox. Brake pads definitely help as well.

As far as tires, I have made 2 different jumps in the past couple years. I was advised when I first started to say on all seasons as the lower grip emphasizes smooth driving and car control at the limit. After a while of that I went to Direzza's, first ZI's then ZII's. An improvement, but not as drastic as I had hoped. After that I jumped to some R-comps (NT01's), and they are an improvement, but again not a huge jump. Expect your times to drop, but know that better tires can cover up driving mistakes.

[Jaxx_]

from your feedback it sounds like you need less rear bar, or more front bar. the easiest thing to do is disconnect the rear bar and see how it feels. If you're not understeering you probably will be, but you'll be able to get on the throttle harder and keep traction.

as matthugie said, good tires won't cover up driving mistakes, but I think you're on the right track. I don't think that a e36 rack will improve your times at all, personally. I run without powersteering and the factory rack.

[Eric]

A few things that might help.

1. Get an alignment that is a compromise for street/auto-x then DO NOT TOUCH IT! Dropping your camber at the auto-x increases your toe out, and our old cars are not straight. with both camber plates maxed out, your might be a degree off between the two wheels! Set it something you can live with on the street that will also help on the track.

2. I loved my R888's on my MINI, but they aren't the best for quick warm ups like auto-x. They will be great on the track though. I'd suggest getting some 225/50/15 ZII's on 15x8 TRM wheels.

3. Disconnect your rear sway and see if you like it, it's a free mod! I personally don't have a rear sway and like it a lot.

4. you have a decent amount of roll in the pictures you provided, I'd bump your spring rates up to something like 500/650 or 550/700. The Koni shocks cannot control spring rates much higher than 700in/lb so I personally wouldn't run much higher than that.

5. E36 rack is cool, but Z3 1.9 rack is the shit!

6. Increase your shock rebound. Especially if you disconnect the rear sways, a stiffer rear shock will help. The Koni's are not linear in stiffness though, so 2 "clicks" on the soft side won't make much difference, but two "clicks" on the stiff end could be a huge difference. This is free to play around with in a parking lot though so go out and experiment!

[Wh33lhop]

A few things that might help.

1. Get an alignment that is a compromise for street/auto-x then DO NOT TOUCH IT! Dropping your camber at the auto-x increases your toe out, and our old cars are not straight. with both camber plates maxed out, your might be a degree off between the two wheels! Set it something you can live with on the street that will also help on the track.

I just had an alignment done, and noted that adding a degree of camber on each side netted me with 1/4" of extra toe out. I set the car up to be -2.5 camber and 1/8" toe in on the street and had them mark where -3.5 camber was on the plates, which will be thereabouts 1/8" toe out, which is good. It's another thing to deal with for sure, but not too bad if you do your homework and know what you're doing.

[Bullet Ride]

With regards to pads it's easy enough to run a good street pad, and then just swap the front pads out for HP+ when you're at the track. The rears don't really do that much work.
It takes about 10min to do, and all you need is a c-clamp to compress the piston and a 13mm wrench to flip up the calliper to get the pads out.

And yes, HPS are pretty shitty. My current street pads are the PBR Ultimate pads and I'm happy with them.

[Wh33lhop]

Watch out with HP+. Despite the marketing they are not a "full" track pad and will feel great on the track right up to the point where they overheat and drop off without warning. Look at the operating temp range vs. something like an HT10 or PFC01.

If you are a gentle driver at the track they could be fine. Personally I wouldn't chance it. Spring for the full track pads from the get-go--PFC11s are like $110 an axle pair from Bimmerworld and are awesome.

[Northern]

I've heard the same thing about HP+, but they definitely would bite well for autox. I'm thinking something less aggressive than HP+ since it was pretty awkward driving through downtown stop and go traffic with the brakes squealing.

I'm not doing any track stuff this year. I'm trying to keep this cheap as possible. Driving schools/lapping days are much pricier than the slaloms.

I got the R888's mounted on some old weaves today, and picked up an air pig so I can stop bumming air from my friend. Also received a new control arm, as I'm still chasing an issue with one of my front wheels being way off center in the front wheelwell (even for having m3 CABs)

I will probably play around with the rear swaybar and shocks in a few events from now. I'm going to see how it feels with the tire change for a bit first.

Next year I may invest in either some 15x8 TRM C1's or something comparable in 15x9, but this year, my old weaves and free R888's will do the trick.

[e30bulldog]

I have a similar car in DSP, I am running GC coils with koni doubles, 500F/625R. I consider the car pretty light especially since it has a kirk racing 4 point cage in it. I am running a bit more camber than you, at -4 degrees up front and -3.5 in the rear. The car is very and put power down quite well.

I would work on your driving and look into loosing weight in your car with exhaust or fixed back race seats.

[Eric]

but not too bad if you do your homework and know what you're doing.

most don't...