Autocross/spirited street brake pad suggestions please

[Bimmerman325i]

Couple comments:

1) the charts posted are only valid for comparing pads tested with the same methodology and conditions, i.e. if you assume Hawk tested all their pads the same way then the chart is valid to compare Hawk v Hawk, but not Hawk v Wilwood. These charts are meant to compare internally with each other.

2) If you are not going to be going on a real race track, do not buy a race track pad. Cold grip is important for street use, as even the most rotor-friendly track pad has almost no pad compound friction at low temperatures. The cold stopping power, in this case, is from mashing the pad into the rotor and effectively grinding. In contrast, street pads (including HP+ and equiv) have pad compound friction at low temperatures, which is massively better on your rotors and cold braking (i.e. friction). Now, why is that?

The pad compound friction is from material transfer between your pad and rotor from bedding the pads in. Cold track pads grind through this layer of deposits, which is where the vast majority of the friction listed in the charts comes from. Warm track pads bond to their bedded material, giving the high friction values in the charts. Cold track pads are....present.

If you are going to be doing autocross and canyons ( ), you want a pad to work from cold. I have autocrossed on HT10/DTC60, -70, HP+, and a bunch of others. HP+ was the best. HT10 was tolerable, DTC60/70 would be warm enough at the very end of the run and then would cool off waiting for the next run. Unless you're driving exceedingly recklessly in a canyon, you won't overheat an HP+ pad. If you're doing canyons to the point of exceeding the capability of street equipment, go to a goddamn racetrack and stop endangering others.

You can run a track pad on the street if you're aware of the many compromises you are making (including performance), but it is not advised for your desired use case whatsoever. Staggering pads is not recommended unless you know exactly what you are doing and why. Bad place to test this is on the street, good place is racetrack.

[Sh3rpak!ng]

The "street race" pad is the same compound as the DTC-30 with a slightly different design supposedly to reduce noise. Honestly I haven't noticed a difference, they're still loud as hell.

As for pad selection, you're not going to get any race pads up to temp on an autox course, front or rear. I went with the DTC-30 because I do both autox and track days, and with those I can get away with not having a set of pads for each. They dust like hell and squeal like a stuck pig when cold (read: any normal street driving). Unless the canyons you're carving have some steep and continuous downhill sections they'll be overkill and never really getting up to optimum temp.

For your purposes, the HP+ is probably the best choice. If you want the rears to bite first then you can stagger DTC-30's in the front and HP+ in the rear without issue, though after 1-2 hard brake applications the fronts will probably have more bite.

Couple comments:

1) the charts posted are only valid for comparing pads tested with the same methodology and conditions, i.e. if you assume Hawk tested all their pads the same way then the chart is valid to compare Hawk v Hawk, but not Hawk v Wilwood. These charts are meant to compare internally with each other.

2) If you are not going to be going on a real race track, do not buy a race track pad. Cold grip is important for street use, as even the most rotor-friendly track pad has almost no pad compound friction at low temperatures. The cold stopping power, in this case, is from mashing the pad into the rotor and effectively grinding. In contrast, street pads (including HP+ and equiv) have pad compound friction at low temperatures, which is massively better on your rotors and cold braking (i.e. friction). Now, why is that?

The pad compound friction is from material transfer between your pad and rotor from bedding the pads in. Cold track pads grind through this layer of deposits, which is where the vast majority of the friction listed in the charts comes from. Warm track pads bond to their bedded material, giving the high friction values in the charts. Cold track pads are....present.

If you are going to be doing autocross and canyons ( ), you want a pad to work from cold. I have autocrossed on HT10/DTC60, -70, HP+, and a bunch of others. HP+ was the best. HT10 was tolerable, DTC60/70 would be warm enough at the very end of the run and then would cool off waiting for the next run. Unless you're driving exceedingly recklessly in a canyon, you won't overheat an HP+ pad. If you're doing canyons to the point of exceeding the capability of street equipment, go to a goddamn racetrack and stop endangering others.

You can run a track pad on the street if you're aware of the many compromises you are making (including performance), but it is not advised for your desired use case whatsoever. Staggering pads is not recommended unless you know exactly what you are doing and why. Bad place to test this is on the street, good place is racetrack.

Thanks guys for the detailed feedback, I really appreciate it. This is all kinda new territory for me since I've never gotten far enough into the driving/racing to start wanting to play with pad compounds etc. I'm glad to have some experienced insight before I make a mistake :) Based on this advice, I'll stay away from the track oriented pads and give the HP+ a try, and look at track pads when I'm ready for the track! Still in the process of fine tuning everything/shaking it down.

Also to make it clear, I do not treat canyons as a racetrack. I agree that is reckless and irresponsible. However, where I live in the Topanga/Malibu/Santa Monica mountains, it is A LOT of steep downhill driving which is pretty heavy on braking even at a moderate pace. Just from my house to the beach (I live up in the mountains) is 7 miles of non stop downhill windy road snaking the valley between the mountains, lots of tight turns and when driven at a smart time of the day when there is minimal/no traffic this is pretty taxing on the brakes :D

[autox320]

Use to autocross since 96. Favorite pads for street and autox were PBR metal master. I've been out of the loop for years on it, but now that i'm back they tell me they don't make them anymore. I found through someone that the cheapo centric brand pads are identical compound. So on my street E30's we use metal master(I still had boxes left over) and centric pads.

Very spirited driving here I live in the mountains too. My drive each day can be considered a hill climb to leave the valley and a downhill to return. It's pretty confident braking with these pads.

I've also had and can suggest looking into the typical street pad brands. Favorite of those has to be Textar(OE BMW supplier without the logo) is another top performer and would be good if they make a pad for your caliper. We use these on a few cars. Example being my Wife's X3 3.0si that carves the same path home daily. She a very good autoxer so tends to be an above average street driver in backroads.

Another is just AX6 autocross pads from Carbotech brakes.

My only real advice is make sure it's a semi-metallic pad for whatever you choose. Ceramic doesn't cut it and are actually not as performance oriented like some believe. Ceramic stock pads are a step below a good semi-metallic.

Yes avoid track pads, you'll never keep the heat in them to work best. There just isn't enough braking from high speed to need those compounds. Hope everyone saved you some bucks here.

[Sh3rpak!ng]

Use to autocross since 96. Favorite pads for street and autox were PBR metal master. I've been out of the loop for years on it, but now that i'm back they tell me they don't make them anymore. I found through someone that the cheapo centric brand pads are identical compound. So on my street E30's we use metal master(I still had boxes left over) and centric pads.

Very spirited driving here I live in the mountains too. My drive each day can be considered a hill climb to leave the valley and a downhill to return. It's pretty confident braking with these pads.

I've also had and can suggest looking into the typical street pad brands. Favorite of those has to be Textar(OE BMW supplier without the logo) is another top performer and would be good if they make a pad for your caliper. We use these on a few cars. Example being my Wife's X3 3.0si that carves the same path home daily. She a very good autoxer so tends to be an above average street driver in backroads.

Another is just AX6 autocross pads from Carbotech brakes.

My only real advice is make sure it's a semi-metallic pad for whatever you choose. Ceramic doesn't cut it and are actually not as performance oriented like some believe. Ceramic stock pads are a step below a good semi-metallic.

Yes avoid track pads, you'll never keep the heat in them to work best. There just isn't enough braking from high speed to need those compounds. Hope everyone saved you some bucks here.

Thank you for more advice and insight!!

Looks like there isn't a HP+ pad made in the 7812 size for the dynapro calipers :( Perhaps I'll just grab a set for the rear since the rear is currently on the stoptech street performance pads. I guess thats still better.

[Luke_M]

It's my understanding that you can't compare mu levels between manufacturers as they use different standards or testing methods. I could be wrong about that but it makes sense as you see some big differences between pads from different companies that should be about the same. You can compare within one brand but cross brand graphs don't translate the same as other standards such as oil viscosity, etc.

I initially used HP+ pads F/R with my manual setup and besides the weekly dust cleanings and occasional squeal they did the job. Great bite and didn't fade with hard street use. That was before my BBK.

I ran HP+ in the rears during a hot track day at road atlanta and they never overheated. But I'm a newbie who doesn't use his brakes as hard as a good driver. Still, I beat on them way harder then I would ever do on the street and they still worked fine. BP-20 up front fwiw.

[Sh3rpak!ng]

It's my understanding that you can't compare mu levels between manufacturers as they use different standards or testing methods. I could be wrong about that but it makes sense as you see some big differences between pads from different companies that should be about the same. You can compare within one brand but cross brand graphs don't translate the same as other standards such as oil viscosity, etc.

I initially used HP+ pads F/R with my manual setup and besides the weekly dust cleanings and occasional squeal they did the job. Great bite and didn't fade with hard street use. That was before my BBK.

I ran HP+ in the rears during a hot track day at road atlanta and they never overheated. But I'm a newbie who doesn't use his brakes as hard as a good driver. Still, I beat on them way harder then I would ever do on the street and they still worked fine. BP-20 up front fwiw.

Thanks, yes that makes sense. My noob mind thought you could at first, but it makes total sense that you can't compare across manufacturer like that.

I don't care about dust. I don't daily the car. Also don't care about squeal, just care about performance. I have dark bronze/black wheels anyway, it hides the dust well.

I'm curious what your current manual setup is with the bbk? Which MC, booster delete bracket and calipers?

[Wschnitz]

IMO stay away from HPS/HP+ they are both mediocre.

My stock pagids brake better....

[Luke_M]

I have Massive's booster delete, stock MC and IE 310mm BBK with a 6712 pad shape. Stock, rebuilt rear calipers. I think a smaller MC would be nice but I've yet to find a good solution that isn't a full blown setup like what garagistic has. I may yet go that route: http://store.garagistic.com/e30-boosterless-brake-setup

The BBK made a big difference and got rid of the softness left in the pedal when braking hard. The pedal is high and tight now which is nice, especially on the track as I found out. I think my brake balance is jacked so a prop valve like you have might help. In theory anyway. There is always the danger of me adjusting things and making it worse :)

Were you able to dial it in fairly well?

[Sh3rpak!ng]

IMO stay away from HPS/HP+ they are both mediocre.

My stock pagids brake better....

I ordered HP+ for the rear. We'll see what happens!

I have Massive's booster delete, stock MC and IE 310mm BBK with a 6712 pad shape. Stock, rebuilt rear calipers. I think a smaller MC would be nice but I've yet to find a good solution that isn't a full blown setup like what garagistic has. I may yet go that route: http://store.garagistic.com/e30-boosterless-brake-setup

The BBK made a big difference and got rid of the softness left in the pedal when braking hard. The pedal is high and tight now which is nice, especially on the track as I found out. I think my brake balance is jacked so a prop valve like you have might help. In theory anyway. There is always the danger of me adjusting things and making it worse :)

Were you able to dial it in fairly well?

That's impressive you retained the original MC. I found P/Ns for an OEM 20/20 and 22/22 MC which is the same shape/size/layout as the original MC. Let me know if you want the #s. I intend to make a little write-up with the info I accumulated once I'm happy with the setup. I am currently using the 20/20 but I believe I still need to bleed the brakes some more, and as you see in this thread, I'd like to play with some different pad compounds. I may switch back to the 22/22, not sure yet. It's close.

[Luke_M]

That's impressive you retained the original MC. I found P/Ns for an OEM 20/20 and 22/22 MC which is the same shape/size/layout as the original MC. Let me know if you want the #s. I intend to make a little write-up with the info I accumulated once I'm happy with the setup. I am currently using the 20/20 but I believe I still need to bleed the brakes some more, and as you see in this thread, I'd like to play with some different pad compounds. I may switch back to the 22/22, not sure yet. It's close.

I thought the stock late model MC was 20/17. If that's true then a 20/20 or 22/22 would only increase the amount of force you need to give at the pedal to stop a given amount. I'm not sure that's what you're after. Maybe it is. It also would lower it more in the rear, increasing the bias even more towards the front. But again, you have bias valve so that can be dialed out.

You may know this, but for those who don't, a bbk up front usually increases bias towards the front with a bigger diameter rotor (think more leverage) and/or bigger piston area (more hydraulic assistance so to speak). So for optimal braking you would need to get more bias back to the rear. A MC more along the lines of 19/15 would be nice.

[Sh3rpak!ng]

I thought the stock late model MC was 20/17. If that's true then a 20/20 or 22/22 would only increase the amount of force you need to give at the pedal to stop a given amount. I'm not sure that's what you're after. Maybe it is. It also would lower it more in the rear, increasing the bias even more towards the front. But again, you have bias valve so that can be dialed out.

You may know this, but for those who don't, a bbk up front usually increases bias towards the front with a bigger diameter rotor (think more leverage) and/or bigger piston area (more hydraulic assistance so to speak). So for optimal braking you would need to get more bias back to the rear. A MC more along the lines of 19/15 would be nice.

Mine was a 22/17. And I like a pedal that's a bit more firm. That said, I was following massive's advice to use a 19/19 MC and figured a 20/20 wouldn't be much worse (so far it's fine for me - and actually wilwood tech recommended a 22/22 which is why I gave it a try). That said, it does seem like a 19/15 or 20/17 would work well to keep the rears strong? Wonder if I can find a 20/17 - seems to be listed on realoem. I reserve final judgement of the 20/20 until I am sure that I've bled everything properly, and it's all fine tuned.

[Luke_M]

Mine was a 22/17. And I like a pedal that's a bit more firm. That said, I was following massive's advice to use a 19/19 MC and figured a 20/20 wouldn't be much worse (so far it's fine for me - and actually wilwood tech recommended a 22/22 which is why I gave it a try). That said, it does seem like a 19/15 or 20/17 would work well to keep the rears strong? Wonder if I can find a 20/17 - seems to be listed on realoem. I reserve final judgement of the 20/20 until I am sure that I've bled everything properly, and it's all fine tuned.

I can see a 20/20 helping if your front is indeed a 22 (or even 21). If it felt better than the stock one that's all that matters.

[Luke_M]

So I just looked mine up again in realoem and mine is a 22/17. Care to share that 20/20 part number? :D

[Sh3rpak!ng]

So I just looked mine up again in realoem and mine is a 22/17. Care to share that 20/20 part number? :D

Sure thing! The PN is actually listed on realoem right under the PN for the 22/17mm believe it or not.

34311154918 is the 20/20mm

Also a tip, new price is around ~$180 for an ate unit from most online retailers. If you got to NAPA and order a new unit from their "store brand" (with lifetime warranty) you'll find a new ate unit inside :D and for $60

[Luke_M]

Nice! Thanks for the info. I love deals like that!