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Timing chain slap/rattle BAMBOOZLED

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    Timing chain slap/rattle BAMBOOZLED

    Have an m42 that I built for a turbo 2002. EVERYTHING inside the engine is new other than cams, lifters, crank, and rods. I recently started having an issue where when the engine is cold the timing chain slaps and the rail hits the inside of the timing chain case. Ran the car with the valve cover off and could see the rail moving. Once the oil pressure comes up the sound goes away after about 15 seconds.

    I replaced the timing chain tensioner with a different one...came from other car with zero noise. I had actually swapped the tensioner that was in this car to the other car and no noise there either but...

    I had squeezed all the oil out of the tensioner multiple times and thought the sound was gone but...nope.

    I have built a couple of these engines and swap A LOT of them into 2002s.

    I am somewhat at a loss as to what is going on now....
    I am now wondering if there is something wrong with the oil control valve in the oil filter housing or a check valve somewhere.
    If anyone has any ideas PLEASE post. I am trying to get this car done for Vintage in NC which is quickly approaching.
    www.classicdaily.net
    1970 m42 swapped 2002
    1985 LS1/T56 Swapped e28 (557e)

    www.blunttech.com - For all your parts needs

    Follow me on Instagram for constant build updates @classicdaily
    https://www.facebook.com/ClassicDailyLLC

    #2
    something to do with the oil pressure.
    Originally posted by wholepailofwater
    Q
    :devil:


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      #3
      Maybe you blocked an oil passage when putting on new the new seals and gaskets.
      Originally posted by wholepailofwater
      Q
      :devil:


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        #4
        but it goes away once pressure comes up....

        Does anyone know just how the pressure relief valve works?
        www.classicdaily.net
        1970 m42 swapped 2002
        1985 LS1/T56 Swapped e28 (557e)

        www.blunttech.com - For all your parts needs

        Follow me on Instagram for constant build updates @classicdaily
        https://www.facebook.com/ClassicDailyLLC

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          #5
          The M42 oil pump suction side is the square hole on the bottom of the timing case, and the discharge is the top of the two stacked square holes visible when the oil filter housing is off. The pressure relief valve is visible through these ports, the lower of the two is completely blocked when the relief valve is in the normal position. When the relief valve opens the bottom port which is connected through to pump suction is opened and pressurized oil is allowed to recirculate through the pump.

          Are you using an early or late style oil filter housing? The late style has a removable anti-drainback valve which goes into the round port in the timing case, the early style has an integral anti-drainback valve in the round discharge port of the housing.

          The tensioner is fed oil through an oil gallery in the head. There is a check valve in the block-to-head interface on some late M42s, which probably has something to do with a change to the head casting.

          If this M42 you've built is a frankenstein of older and newer parts, it's possible one of the valves isn't there, or that the wrong timing case gasket was used which can interfere with some of the passages in the case. If not, I'd check the rail and make sure there are no defects and then the dowel it pivots on. The tensioner should not go loose even if oil pressure is lost, it has a fairly strong spring in it.

          IG @turbovarg
          '91 318is, M20 turbo
          [CoTM: 4-18]
          '94 525iT slicktop, M50B30 + S362SX-E, 600WHP DD or bust
          - updated 1-26

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            #6
            It has the early (metal) oil filter housing.
            Later front timing chain cover without the idler gear.
            The oil pressure check is in the head replaced it.

            Checked multiple times I had the right gasket for the front part....

            I wouldn't think the tensioner could go loose either. It's pretty stiff with the spring and once oil is in it. But every cold start it has a lot of chain slop and noise....

            Not sure how the tensioner could go loose every cold start. I've built other m42s and never had this issue...
            www.classicdaily.net
            1970 m42 swapped 2002
            1985 LS1/T56 Swapped e28 (557e)

            www.blunttech.com - For all your parts needs

            Follow me on Instagram for constant build updates @classicdaily
            https://www.facebook.com/ClassicDailyLLC

            Comment


              #7
              Oil to the tensioner is provided by the long groove in the back of the timing case, not via the head as far as I recall. If you use the later timing case, you MUST also use the later steel case-to-block gasket associated with it. The groove that supplies the tensioner is in a different location on the two cases, and the gasket is also slotted differently. It could be that if there is a gasket mismatch, it is has plugged up the passage. The oil should come up to pressure within a second or less, so if it is taking longer than that, your issue may also be there. The original oil bypass plunger in the timing case was metal and prone to seizing open. A newer design was released that was plastic, so you may want to consider replacing the plunger/spring/etc (check RealOEM) if it is original...maybe it seized?

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                #8
                I had checked that gasket multiple times when I put it in. 99.9% I have the correct one. If I remember correctly the other one didn't match at all.

                I am also using the newer plastic style pressure release valve. I JUST pulled the lower oil pan to pull that valve out. When I pulled the spring out the valve didn't just drop down and out of the bore. I had to pull it out..... What would it do it is was sticking all the way up? Does that valve route out up to the top of the head as well?

                This is a new engine but MANY of the prior starts there was no noise.....
                www.classicdaily.net
                1970 m42 swapped 2002
                1985 LS1/T56 Swapped e28 (557e)

                www.blunttech.com - For all your parts needs

                Follow me on Instagram for constant build updates @classicdaily
                https://www.facebook.com/ClassicDailyLLC

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                  #9
                  Would it seize up or down in the bore?
                  www.classicdaily.net
                  1970 m42 swapped 2002
                  1985 LS1/T56 Swapped e28 (557e)

                  www.blunttech.com - For all your parts needs

                  Follow me on Instagram for constant build updates @classicdaily
                  https://www.facebook.com/ClassicDailyLLC

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Are you sure about oil to the tensioner??? The tensioner is connection is part of the head and not the block that would have the front cover...
                    www.classicdaily.net
                    1970 m42 swapped 2002
                    1985 LS1/T56 Swapped e28 (557e)

                    www.blunttech.com - For all your parts needs

                    Follow me on Instagram for constant build updates @classicdaily
                    https://www.facebook.com/ClassicDailyLLC

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                      #11
                      Took a picture of the oil passage to the tensioner. Under the exhaust camshaft tray.
                      Attached Files

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                        #12
                        Maybe pull the cams and chain, crank it to see if this passage is not clogged. Careful oil might spurt out of all the other passages. I'd like to see the mess it makes!
                        Attached Files

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                          #13
                          M44 tensioner?

                          All I got is that I would think the spring in the tensioner would keep things tight and
                          quiet, in conjunction with residual oil in the bore, until pressure came up.
                          So, binding tensioner, badly scored bore?

                          t
                          now, sometimes I just mess with people. It's more entertaining that way. george graves

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                            #14
                            Bore of the tensioner itself or where it goes into the head? The tensioner doesn't move in the bore of the head at all. Well it shouldn't at least.

                            Could the chain somehow be too tight and pushing the oil out of the tensioner?

                            I dropped the lower pan..and well upper too. There was some debris in the oil...some was assembly lube but others looked like gasket material or little bits of rtv. Cleaned it all out...checked pressure valve (moved fine and is the new style). Cleaned entire pan, reinstalled, put a quart of marvel mystery oil in it and the rest oil. Started and made the clattering sound. Took maybe 10 minutes then went away....

                            Let it idle 10 minutes. Sat for a couple hours and started again...noise came back. Let it idle for a good 20-30 minutes to circulate the MMO and that is where we are now....

                            Letting it cool down and will start again.

                            Not sure what the next step is other than pulling the front of the engine off to see what the chain is doing. Maybe start it with no front covers....
                            www.classicdaily.net
                            1970 m42 swapped 2002
                            1985 LS1/T56 Swapped e28 (557e)

                            www.blunttech.com - For all your parts needs

                            Follow me on Instagram for constant build updates @classicdaily
                            https://www.facebook.com/ClassicDailyLLC

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Aah yeah, you are right, the tensioner is in the head not the case. I was thinking of the oil sprayer that shoots oil onto the chain as it slides up the tensioner rail.

                              So as far as I know, if the relief plunger is stuck in the UP position, oil pressure will be a little too high since it can't recirculate. The plunger is basically the oil pressure regulator. The real danger is when it gets stuck down (open), at least as far as I remember.

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