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Old 11-21-2012, 05:59 PM   #16
E30SPDFRK
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4-4.5*!? Do you have a before and after alignment sheet proving that? That's a huge reduction from just 12mm
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:32 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by F34R View Post
Fastest way to correct neg camber! I went the weld in camber correction kit...but still have camber. I think this kit would be a perfect combo to the weld in kit for extremely low track minded e30s. Make use of that full tire contact!

I will be coming back here for my next set of bushings! Do you know if you will be offering them in alum with the 12mm of correction?
thanks!
No plans to offer them in aluminum, UHMW will give the same benefits with a bit less of the harshness you get from aluminum.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:36 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by E30SPDFRK View Post
4-4.5*!? Do you have a before and after alignment sheet proving that? That's a huge reduction from just 12mm
Unfortunately i do not have an alignment sheet, but it is true we measured an improvement of 4.5 Degrees.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:55 AM   #19
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How did you measure if you didn't do an alignment? Protractor? iPhone level app?

I'm not trying to shit on your product, I know it does help and it's good to have companies making new products for e30's. But 4.5* of correction from moving the subframe up 12mm is just not true. Moving the subframe up is basically the same thing as raising the springs up, just with less effect on the hight of the car. In order to even get 4.5* out of an e30, you need to drop the rear of the car close to 3". Raising the subframe 12mm has the same effect as raising the spring seat 12mm ( make a rectangle with the subframe and the spring pivot as the opposite corners, the angle of the line between the two stay the same wether you raise one or drop the other).

IX's came stock with offset bushings. By your guesstimates, they would have around 3* of positive camber from the factory.

Again, I'm not shooting down your product, just trying to prevent misinformation. Please get a printout of an alignment sheet before and after where the only thing you change is the bushings, I'll bet it's closer to 1* of correction.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:18 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by E30SPDFRK View Post
How did you measure if you didn't do an alignment? Protractor? iPhone level app?

I'm not trying to shit on your product, I know it does help and it's good to have companies making new products for e30's. But 4.5* of correction from moving the subframe up 12mm is just not true. Moving the subframe up is basically the same thing as raising the springs up, just with less effect on the hight of the car. In order to even get 4.5* out of an e30, you need to drop the rear of the car close to 3". Raising the subframe 12mm has the same effect as raising the spring seat 12mm ( make a rectangle with the subframe and the spring pivot as the opposite corners, the angle of the line between the two stay the same wether you raise one or drop the other).

IX's came stock with offset bushings. By your guesstimates, they would have around 3* of positive camber from the factory.

Again, I'm not shooting down your product, just trying to prevent misinformation. Please get a printout of an alignment sheet before and after where the only thing you change is the bushings, I'll bet it's closer to 1* of correction.
You are wrong,
There is no mis-information going on. FYI, Moving the subframe up is not even close to raising the springs up.... By raising the subframe the springs become a pivot point, and draw the trailingarms up. It's the same as installing a weld in camber correction kit, but it's easier to install and it doesnt change toe settings.

It was a 4.5* change, We used an Iphone app with a custom aluminum adapter plate. We measured 4.5 on one side and 4.7 on the other... I listed 4.0-4.5 because i want to leave room for a bit of error.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:50 AM   #21
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The only thing moving the subframe up does is change the angle of the trailing arms in relation to the ground. That angle is all that matters, not how you got it. It is exactly the same thing as raising the spring, except it doesn't effect the height as much.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:51 AM   #22
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How low was the car in question? How destroyed were the previous bushings? Was any other part or bushing replaced at the same time?

This guy actually did the math involved with the trailing arms and their angles, and came up with some neat graphs of how much toe and camber you'll get from various arm angles, and also translated that into movement of the wheels.

http://www.e30m3project.com/e30m3per...rves/index.htm

There are three pages total to the article, with the graphs on page 2 and 3.


This one shows negative camber gained in relation to trailing arm angle, for both the standard 15 degree trailing arms, and also the gruppe A 12 degree arms.


.... And translated into wheel travel....



From that last one... a stock E30 should have about 2 degrees of negative camber as per this post.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/show...85&postcount=3

So to arrive at 6 degrees of negative camber, the E30 in question should have to be lowered about 4.5 inches, with all else being equal. Thus, I'm wondering how low the car was?

I'm not shitting on your product either... in fact I plan on buying it somewhat soon. I'm just trying to wrap my head around E30 rear suspension geometry.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:54 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E30SPDFRK View Post
The only thing moving the subframe up does is change the angle of the trailing arms in relation to the ground. That angle is all that matters, not how you got it. It is exactly the same thing as raising the spring, except it doesn't effect the height as much.
Are you basing this on experience, or assumption?
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:58 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mulletman View Post
How low was the car in question? How destroyed were the previous bushings? Was any other part or bushing replaced at the same time?

This guy actually did the math involved with the trailing arms and their angles, and came up with some neat graphs of how much toe and camber you'll get from various arm angles, and also translated that into movement of the wheels.

http://www.e30m3project.com/e30m3per...rves/index.htm

There are three pages total to the article, with the graphs on page 2 and 3.


This one shows negative camber gained in relation to trailing arm angle, for both the standard 15 degree trailing arms, and also the gruppe A 12 degree arms..... And translated into wheel travel....


From that last one... a stock E30 should have about 2 degrees of negative camber as per this post.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/show...85&postcount=3

So to arrive at 6 degrees of negative camber, the E30 in question should have to be lowered about 4.5 inches, with all else being equal. Thus, I'm wondering how low the car was?

I'm not shitting on your product either... in fact I plan on buying it somewhat soon. I'm just trying to wrap my head around E30 rear suspension geometry.
The car was extremely low. No spring pads, no adjusters, soft 6" springs (appeared to be JOM). Just before the client left, I installed some 750lb 5" springs and the ride height was increased. He was tucking 195/65 on bottle caps by quite a bit. I couldn't get my lift under the car low.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:04 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
Are you basing this on experience, or assumption?
I'm basing that on basic geometry.


Picture the subframe 4" from the ground on the car with stock bushings in place. You install the offset bushings and leave the springs in place, the subframe is now 4.5" off the ground, even though the car has stayed put.

Now raise the car the 12mm. The subframe is now 4.5" off the ground, same as the offset bushings. The car height is the only thing that's different.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:09 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
The car was extremely low. No spring pads, no adjusters, soft 6" springs (appeared to be JOM). Just before the client left, I installed some 750lb 5" springs and the ride height was increased. He was tucking 195/65 on bottle caps by quite a bit. I couldn't get my lift under the car low.
Good info! Thanks!
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E30SPDFRK View Post
I'm basing that on basic geometry.


Picture the subframe 4" from the ground on the car with stock bushings in place. You install the offset bushings and leave the springs in place, the subframe is now 4.5" off the ground, even though the car has stayed put.

Now raise the car the 12mm. The subframe is now 4.5" off the ground, same as the offset bushings. The car height is the only thing that's different.
It's not the same as lifting/lowering the car, the springs are a pivot and with any fulcrum, the in/decrease is multiplied by the difference in lengths from the center.

As far as the ix bushings raising the subframe, you have it backwards. We just restored an ix rear section, the bushings actually drop the subframe to correct the camber since the ix has a higher ride height than a RWD e30. Some ix guys actually use RWD e30 bushings for their lowered car, but the difference between ix and RWD bushings is no where near 12mm.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:34 AM   #28
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Another set Installed by a r3v member!

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/show...&postcount=138
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:55 PM   #29
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It's not the same as lifting/lowering the car, the springs are a pivot and with any fulcrum, the in/decrease is multiplied by the difference in lengths from the center.
This. 12mm at the subframe is going to change camber a lot more than 12mm at the spring.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:25 PM   #30
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With 4 degrees of camber correction, I'm concerned I might end up with positive camber when running with H&R races. It will probably end up being the perfect combo but I might as well inquire anyways.
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