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Old 11-07-2016, 04:24 PM   #1
ba114
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Rolling anti-lag

Thought i'd post this here in-case anyone is interested in giving this a try, taken from my build thread in my sig. Applies to OBD2 only

Fairly simple implementation:
1. Cut the grey wire going to the IAT

2. Relay wiring
Pin 30 - connect to the grey IAT wire that is still connected to the ECU.
Pin 87a - connect to the grey IAT wire that is still connected to the IAT sensor.
Pin 85 - connect to a ground wire with a switch in it.
Pin 86 - connect to any red/white wire for 12v.
Pin 87 - connect a 60k ohm resistor and then wire tap this into the grey/brown IAT sensor wire.

What this will do is intercept the IAT sensor reading and send a -25c temperature reading to the ECU.
Then you just need to adjust the flash so that your correction tables will retard timing when the IAT sensor is -25c. I like to aim for -10 degrees of timing. The values in the attachment should target that for a stock ms41.2 rom (obviously this will be different once you're boosted).

I haven't tested this on a running car, however was testing in the garage while logging and on ACC and confirmed that i didn't throw any CELs.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:34 PM   #2
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Video of the implementation:
https://youtu.be/Phu7yTHUVtc
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Old 11-10-2016, 03:07 PM   #3
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Holy ghettoness.
If you're serious enough about driving a car to need anti-lag, just buy a real standalone ECU with real motorsport functions!
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Old 11-16-2016, 08:03 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
Holy ghettoness.
If you're serious enough about driving a car to need anti-lag, just buy a real standalone ECU with real motorsport functions!
Really glad that not everyone in this community thinks like that...
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Old 11-16-2016, 08:04 PM   #5
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I'm still wondering if we could just use the ASC timing retard table to do this (mostly would just avoid modifying maps that are used, and remove the need to splice IAT wire)
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Old 11-16-2016, 08:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
Holy ghettoness.
If you're serious enough about driving a car to need anti-lag, just buy a real standalone ECU with real motorsport functions!
Kind of an interesting comment given what your avatar is showing...

Me personally? If there's a way to have the stock ecu continue to do what it will always do better than a standalone i.e. run the car under normal conditions, whilst also enabling some non-stock functionality to be added, i'm all for it and will continue to share it with the community for them to decide whether to adopt it or not.

Anyway, as it stands, it's a less technical implementation of what is being done in the N54 world that is proving useful in 1/2 mile/roll events. If it's good enough over there, it's good enough here.
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Old 11-17-2016, 04:18 AM   #7
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What's with my avatar?
And since when is anti-lag considered a "normal driving condition". I agree that for stock engines, every day driveability will be better with stock ecu's. when it comes to Motorsport functions (such as anti-lag) and performance tuning, in no way can a stock ecu even come close to what a quality standalone can accomplish.


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Old 11-17-2016, 06:55 AM   #8
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Please read my response and know I am responding in GENERAL, not attacking or singling the op or any of the guys replying.

It amazes me how hard you guys try to create/force motorsport functions with the factory ECU. It seriously is fascinating to see the ways people are working around the limitations. Hacking up all the wiring in the car, adding relays, switches, etc - all so you can "trick" your ECU into doing what you want.

What is this actually supposed to do? Rolling anti-lag as Rolling Launch Control?

How would you use this? What if you are in second gear vs fourth gear? Obviously you will need way more retard in the lower gear.... maybe you would flash maps for different gears you will use every time?

The biggest issue in this EFI tuning industry is there are no definitions for motorsport "functions" at all. You search anti-lag and THIS comes up and it is a laughable function as compared to a real system yet it is the "same". Read what real anti-lag is....

REAL motorsport ECUs have rolling launch/anti-lag control. They are CLOSED LOOP systems that latch onto vehicle speed, and then not only retard timing, but can function with proper cuts to get the job done. If drive by wire is added, this is an offset as well. Simply retarding timing can just burn up all your parts, but oh well???? Read and educate yourself.

Why don't you guys just install a real ECU system into the car? Some mention that you will do ANYTHING to use the factory ECU? This is just so backwards I can't even start to explain. Most of you with turbocharged packages have spent so much on your hardware, and then have done ANYTHING you can to keep the cheapest/least capable tuning solution possible? It is amazing...

It was brought up that aftermarket ECUs don't provide the same drivability features as the stock ecu which could be true, except it is NOT anymore.
The systems available now have WAY more convenience features than the 20+ year old tech, plus they add real mixture measurements (for real closed loop fueling - whoa), way better individual knock detection, and all these motorsport features you guys want (map switching on the fly, flex fuel, trips/limps, internal logging, boost control, launch control, traction control, and way more). Plus you can tune it yourself if you want (or bring it to any capable EFI system specialist) and LIVE tune it. No more marrying of your systems to some guy half way across the country (or world) "remote tuning" your car.

Full disclosure - You need to spend the time to get everything fixed up for drivability but it is 1000% possible now. It is NOT a reason to stay away from it. In fact, if you are interested in tuning yourself, then why wouldn't you want to learn how to do it? Imagine being able to plug in any PC laptop, install free software, and just change things yourself. Imagine being able to use REAL fuel modeling and have your ECU actually "know" what the airflow is. Imagine being able to program in protection features for fuel pressure, oil temperature, engine temperature, etc.

Oh - it is cheap too :

This plugs into OBD1 Vanos engine harness straight away and comes with a start up file that gets the engine running straightaway

http://www.aceperformancesystems.com...0-plug-in-ecu/

You can expand it and add a bunch of inputs as well like fuel pressure (it uses fuel pressure in the fuel model). Control a waste gate solenoid properly in closed loop (then do boost by gear/speed, etc), add switch inputs for map switching, logging, launch, anti-lag, etc.

Here is a good blog post about a comprehensive install of that system above (track/DE car).

http://www.aceperformancesystems.com...able-blending/

Even the op looks like he is from Austrailia. This is where all these ECU systems basically come from (link is NZ, but there is emtron, haltech, motec, - aus)

Mad people are going to reply to this thread and try to discredit what I am showing you, especially the guys who SELL 1980s chip solutions. Those guys are going to tell you it is not needed, and then not support their reasoning AT ALL. They will also probably try to compare the system I showed you above to something way worse (that has complicated setup) - in order to try to add anxiety to keep you away. OR compare it to something way more expensive (or more expensive to install). Just remember that these aftermarket parts exist for a reason, and there is a reason why people use them.

Lots will also complain how much it costs (even though the plug in solution for OBD1 is NOT expensive). I don't understand why people lose their minds constantly over this. You guys spend so much money on modifying your cars anyways. That's what you do... justify it the same way?

Anyways,
I will probably never see the reply as I don't have time to jump on forums often. Responses trying to validate using the factory ECU instead of a proper management system for MOTORSPORT functions are a total waste/trolling anyways. Obviously the cost is higher with an aftermarket ECU (especially if you don't use a plug in), BUT how much does it cost to fix stuff doing things half ass? Sounds like blown engines just flipping a switch for hacked timing retard.

YOU guys read what this stuff does and you decide.
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Old 11-17-2016, 07:26 AM   #9
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Good idea to trick the ECU into a map not normally used. I was JUST thinking about anti-lag on Motronic 1.3, but was going about it a different way by using a momentary switch with a 512 chip and 2 .bin files to do so - or using the WOT switch map with a momentary and disabling the TPS function (which I do anyways to keep the ECU in part throttle maps).

Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
What's with my avatar?
And since when is anti-lag considered a "normal driving condition". I agree that for stock engines, every day driveability will be better with stock ecu's. when it comes to Motorsport functions (such as anti-lag) and performance tuning, in no way can a stock ecu even come close to what a quality standalone can accomplish.


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A sand alone almost never drives "like stock", or at least seems to always need to be messed with. Specially when stock functions like A/C and CEL are retained. Sure we have plenty daily drivers we tuned with stand alone, but it's never the same.

And pretty sure he is talking about your "functional" spoiler.
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Old 11-17-2016, 07:32 AM   #10
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I can email the both of you the CFD analysis of the drag and downforce of my wing on my car in a wind tunnel. I can assure you that almost 700 pounds of downforce at 120 mph makes a big difference. If you'd like to do your own research, it is a APR performance GT250 wing. (Not to be confused with the AUdi/VW tuning company)

As for your ghetto switch install for "anti-lag". Do you really think this will be even nearly as reliable as actual anti-lag controlled by a standalone? Will people really go this far these days just to shoot fire out their exhaust???

If you read what NPavlo just said... The newest quality standalone solutions on the market WILL have better driveability than the factory DME when it comes to totally normal day to day driving. We aren't talking about Megasquirt and VEMS here. If you are using a lower end standalone option, then i agree that day to day driveability will be hindered.
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Old 11-17-2016, 07:33 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
Good idea to trick the ECU into a map not normally used. I was JUST thinking about anti-lag on Motronic 1.3, but was going about it a different way by using a momentary switch with a 512 chip and 2 .bin files to do so - or using the WOT switch map with a momentary and disabling the TPS function (which I do anyways to keep the ECU in part throttle maps).



A sand alone almost never drives "like stock", or at least seems to always need to be messed with. Specially when stock functions like A/C and CEL are retained. Sure we have plenty daily drivers we tuned with stand alone, but it's never the same.

And pretty sure he is talking about your "functional" spoiler.
All of that stuff, A/C, CEL, and way more work with the Link ECU package I linked. It works actually way way better as you can create offsets for fueling, ignition, idle position, and more. You can also create trims for extra inputs and outputs for fans, power steering pressure switches, and more.

With real closed loop functions, once setup there is more range of adaptation than the factory ECU that can't even properly measure the mixture. This means LESS messing around after the fact.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:02 AM   #12
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Apologies, my window was open and not refreshed for the long post npavlo. Very interesting since I was just discussing a vendor account with Jason at VEMS USA.

You are one of the few with a functional wing, although not sure why you would need 700lb downforce in an e30, the drag would out weigh the benefits for most applications, but the comment was more geared towards the reason it was made by the op. 700lb down force would destroy my lap times, not help them in any way ~175whp still barely pegs the inaccurate speedometer in a 2500lb brick - it reaches terminal velocity closer to 125 via GPS.

Just like 10yrs ago when forum members would bash me for tuning the stock e30 ECU and hacking it to do what I want, instead of using MS put a bad taste in my mouth. Instead of letting one offer information, instantly, it's said "you should have done this instead". Can't tell you how many "just 24v it" posts came up in the m20 sub forums when m50 swaps started to become popular.

Sometimes, it's not bout shooting flames, and some of us actually do use stock ECU's to do things they were never intended, and that doesn't make it "ghetto". My e36 ITB uses a 413 converted to Alpha-N and drive/runs/starts like stock and did so with a few hours of tuning - something that was unheard of a handful of years ago.

Either way, these posts are not constructive to the OP's findings IMO, take it with a grain of salt.
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Old 11-17-2016, 10:31 AM   #13
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For the record, the wing is adjustable, not always at the 700lb. Setting. With that being said, even at the high DF setting it has ~100lbs of drag.
Most of the New England tracks (except the glen) have lots of sweepers. Not too many straight aways. Downforce, in general, trumps crazy aero.

Not trying to bash the OP.
Just trying to get the point across to people that this is not a proper anti-lag solution and WILL break your car.
I'm all for DIY solutions vs. buying expensive bolt-ons, but this is the wrong way to go about things...


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Old 11-17-2016, 10:53 AM   #14
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I agree with FireBird, wouldn't consider this ghetto. I can appreciate someone figuring out how to get a stock ecu to run anti-lag timing.
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Old 11-17-2016, 11:17 AM   #15
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I've done something similar with megasquirt when spare inputs were not available to trigger it. It's of the same vein as slapping in 0 degrees of ignition advance in a very low MAP row of the ignition table for crackle on overrun. I call it "stupid tuner tricks" as a tongue in cheek reference to the response it would get out of someone who can afford a $4,000 professional grade engine management system.
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