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Old 11-17-2016, 10:18 AM   #16
ForcedFirebird
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It's not ghetto if the map exists and you are trick-forcing the ecu to read your manipulated map. Either way, there's always more than one way to skin a cat. I have been personally hacking stock computers for well over a decade and am glad to see people still doing it. It's just very irking when a finding is shared and the initial responses from some are "ghetto, not the best, do it this way" etc. Not everyone wants to drop a g-note on a computer for just a couple features that can be manipulated to do so - specially when OEM is already there, already wired and just needs some software rewritten.

When I started posting in these forums, I had already been wrenching for 1.5 decades and we learned things the hard way - trial and error, or by apprenticing - today's wrenchers don't realize how easy life is when you have a wealth of information at your fingertips, and don't have to have a library of books and spend hours thumbing to find answers. My first top end rebuild was on a 73 510 pickup truck I bought for $250. Took me 3x to get it right since I had no idea th chain tensioner needed a wedge of wood to hold the tensioner from popping out of the bracket - stretched 2 chains trying to get it right. Now, you just put that junk in google and have 100 answers in .00003 seconds.

EDIT: Only drawback to today's info is recycled BAD information with no first hand experience. Several times I found bad information that was just spread too far to be corrected.

Man, I just aged myself
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:03 PM   #17
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That particular Link system, for just over a g-note (NOT $4k, didn't I say someone would say that, basically exactly???? LMAO) you get :

Anti-Lag

.
.


.

Oh, and also :

Live tuning ability with access to every ECU runtime in real time with any PC laptop
On the fly map switching
Circular ECU logging at high frequency (downloadable to laptop)
Actual fuel modeling (using speed density MAP that comes with the ECU - better than recalibrating the MAF fault/limp mode - what ALL of you refer to as Alpha N - The new ECU actually KNOWS about your fuel system and engine holy shit)
High resolution tables
Individual knock detection (noise level per cylinder, knock count per cylinder, populate individual tables per cylinder for knock retard)
Fuel trim per cylinder in 3D tables
Transient ignition functions
Closed loop idle valve control
Closed loop idle ignition
Gear detection
Launch control
Trips for engine temp, rpm limit, map limit, etc.
CAN bus input/output for fancy dashboards, data loggers, I/O expansion, etc.

Add some sensors (which most of you have anyways) / outputs, and you get :

Real wideband closed loop fuel control (so your ECU actually SEE and correct your mixture!!)
Fuel pressure input will correct fuel model for differential pressure offset
Trips for oil pressure, oil temp, fuel pressure, mixture, EGT
Closed loop boost control
Nitrous control
Motorsport traction control (using real speed inputs for drive slip calculation)
Switched functions for map switching, launching, limp/valet, whatever you want

And more stuff I can't think of. Seems like a DEAL to me don't you think (JUST $1100 NOT $4K)? That's a lot of stuff isn't it? It is actually a TOTAL no brainer. I can't understand.... Or you can play with the factory ECU trying to create rolling anti-lag, which doesn't exist?

Let's clear that up...

Rolling anti-lag? Do you all know what anti-lag is? Anti-lag is overrunning boost control. This keeps the turbo going when you are decelerating. What you guys are trying to do is a rolling launch control function where retarding the timing spools the turbo faster (which if you don't introduce cuts generally burns your engine up much faster). How will this work based on what gear you are in? You will have to brake boost the car anyways it seems.
Fine, pretty cool you figured out how to do that... You guys spent probably much more on just the turbo for your car, yet you don't have an EFI system?

Remember, with the new EFI system, you lose NOTHING now.
Remember, with the new EFI system, you can tune anything you want, yourself even (that's what you guys are doing here - the HARD way).
Remember, with the new EFI system, you don't have to come up with workarounds. The functions exist because it is a MOTORSPORT part.
Remember, with the new EFI system, you plug it in, run a vacuum line, and START THE CAR. There is no complicated setup like someone did (or absolutely will) mention next.

I won't sugar coat it though, you have to calibrate it. But you just calibrate it. You guys are already doing that.

Read the blog I posted. Check out all the closed loop functions regarding cam positioning and more. The cars are a night and day difference drivability wise (I have mentioned NO PERFORMANCE numbers at all you notice???) response wise, usability wise, convenience wise, and more.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:07 PM   #18
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This is an ollllld Subaru trick. Directions are identical and everything.

USE WITH CAUTION I've seen a lot of horror stories from this.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:39 PM   #19
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This is an ollllld Subaru trick. Directions are identical and everything.

USE WITH CAUTION I've seen a lot of horror stories from this.
Was leveraged from how it was done on the n54, which I have been using for over a year now without issue.

It's obviously not a regularly used function, and understanding that this is a good way to shorten the life of your exhaust valves etc. It is effective however at spooling the turbos while maintaining revs.

Completely understand the capabilities of buying a standalone and have nothing against those that wish to go that way.

Maybe one day I will go that way, I have looked into ecumaster given they're aussie based like me, but at this point in time, I want the stock ecu and I enjoy tinkering. The stock ecu is perfectly capable of tuning and running a turbo setup, and even capable of monitoring boost and wide band afr and building applicable safeties in based on unused functions.

Real-time tuning however is something that I doubt will ever be possible based on the memory size of the stock ecu and is a serious advantage.

Thank you all for your feedback and for providing some information for other readers so that they can make better educated decisions before trying it out.
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Old 11-17-2016, 02:06 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by squidmaster View Post
This is an ollllld Subaru trick. Directions are identical and everything.

USE WITH CAUTION I've seen a lot of horror stories from this.
Anti-lag shortens the life of valves/turbo, no matter how you go about it. Something about combustion where it's not meant to be...
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Old 11-17-2016, 02:29 PM   #21
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Amazes me when people just stand on it with throttle kick anti lag, fuck your exhaust valves lmao. That being said I looked into this, and like the idea of using an air pump, fueling I can't figure out beyond just running rich or an injector. All theory.
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Old 11-17-2016, 03:09 PM   #22
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Instead of letting one offer information, instantly, it's said "you should have done this instead".
This is exactly what this is, and I don't understand how r3v, the place where used timing belts have actually been sold, somehow can say anything about using a stock ECU for more than it was shipped for.


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Why don't you guys just install a real ECU system into the car? Some mention that you will do ANYTHING to use the factory ECU? This is just so backwards I can't even start to explain. Most of you with turbocharged packages have spent so much on your hardware, and then have done ANYTHING you can to keep the cheapest/least capable tuning solution possible? It is amazing...
MS41 is still more capable than most of the entry level standalones that you see people running on this site. There is no reason not to use it if you can wrap your head around more than a VE table, and live with turning the car off to reflash.

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Imagine being able to plug in any PC laptop, install free software, and just change things yourself. Imagine being able to use REAL fuel modeling and have your ECU actually "know" what the airflow is.
So why wouldn't you just do that anyway?

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Originally Posted by npavlo View Post
Imagine being able to program in protection features for fuel pressure, oil temperature, engine temperature, etc.
Would be nice... but there are plenty of unused inputs with MS41, so you could feed a signal into the ECU for most, if not all of that if you were so inclined.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have a good standalone, just that it's a lot of work/time/money when the stock ECU is nowhere as bad as you claim.

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Amazes me when people just stand on it with throttle kick anti lag, fuck your exhaust valves lmao.
I'm more worried about the turbine, but then again, my turbo is worth ~1400 and my M52 ~$300.
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Old 11-17-2016, 05:34 PM   #23
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Northern,
With the price of the particular Link system that NPavlo mentioned being only $1,100 why would you use the factory DME?
As mentioned above, daily driveability is BETTER than factory, and you have so much more flexibility and reliability.
We aren't talking about ecumasters, Megasquirt, or VEMS here...

A factory ecu getting airflow from a MAF sensor in no way is as accurate as a set injector flow rate, fuel pressure, and MGP info. (Ideal gas law).
I don't think you understand the number of tables and resolution that a quality standalone offers compared to stock.

I have used an OBD1 computer with TRM chip, a Technica "tuned" OBD2 computer, and the Vipec V88 ecu. There is absolutely no comparison between the stock computers and the Vipec.

Out of curiosity, how many of you that are bashing standalones as being "extremely difficult to setup" and "cost $4k" actually have any experience with a quality standalone EMS? Emtron, Link/Vipec, Motec, Haltech, etc.

Am i the only one here with back to back experience?

Again, there is a time and a place for factory computers. The time was 20 years ago, and the place is on factory setup cars. If you want modern motorsport functions and/or want to heavily modify your engine, in every way a quality standalone is going to be your best solution. $1.1k is not alot of money (I think the same price as MS3 pro currently). It will save you money, time, headache, and offer more safety, fuel efficiency, and reliability than the factory computer ever will.


I'm not here to bash people. Alot of people here put alot of money and time into their cars. I just don't want to see peoples motors getting pointlessly and stupidly destroyed because they can make their car make funny noises and shoot flames out the exhaust.


For those looking to learn (i know i always am) read some of NPavlo's blog posts: https://blog.pavlotech.com/
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:13 PM   #24
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Northern,
With the price of the particular Link system that NPavlo mentioned being only $1,100 why would you use the factory DME?
As mentioned above, daily driveability is BETTER than factory, and you have so much more flexibility and reliability.
We aren't talking about ecumasters, Megasquirt, or VEMS here...
Have you used VEMS to group it with MS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
A factory ecu getting airflow from a MAF sensor in no way is as accurate as a set injector flow rate, fuel pressure, and MGP info. (Ideal gas law).
I don't think you understand the number of tables and resolution that a quality standalone offers compared to stock.
Not even sure how you think a MAF is inaccurate. GM/sec is GM/sec and BSFC is BSFC, onyl draw back to a MAF is it can't read positive pressure.

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Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
I have used an OBD1 computer with TRM chip, a Technica "tuned" OBD2 computer, and the Vipec V88 ecu. There is absolutely no comparison between the stock computers and the Vipec.
Not even going there with mail order tunes.

TRM vs WOT-Tech same car same day same dyno.

http://s448.photobucket.com/user/For...f6ab5.jpg.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
Out of curiosity, how many of you that are bashing standalones as being "extremely difficult to setup" and "cost $4k" actually have any experience with a quality standalone EMS? Emtron, Link/Vipec, Motec, Haltech, etc.
Wolf, AEM, GM, BMW, Megaquirt just to name a couple, with dyno proof.

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Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
Am i the only one here with back to back experience?
No. Would you like to see the thousands of winpep files?

Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
Again, there is a time and a place for factory computers. The time was 20 years ago, and the place is on factory setup cars. If you want modern motorsport functions and/or want to heavily modify your engine, in every way a quality standalone is going to be your best solution. $1.1k is not alot of money (I think the same price as MS3 pro currently). It will save you money, time, headache, and offer more safety, fuel efficiency, and reliability than the factory computer ever will.
$1100 vs software only? Show me back to back of a dyno tune on a N/A 24v vs a stand alone and I will tell you - there's little to no difference. That screen in the MAF is not going to hinder power to a consistent measurable difference. I have SD tuned cars that came MAF, as well as converted stock PCM/ECU/ECM's to ALpha-N.

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I'm not here to bash people. Alot of people here put alot of money and time into their cars. I just don't want to see peoples motors getting pointlessly and stupidly destroyed because they can make their car make funny noises and shoot flames out the exhaust.
Not bashing? Your first post in this thread...

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Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
Holy ghettoness.
If you're serious enough about driving a car to need anti-lag, just buy a real standalone ECU with real motorsport functions!
I will repeat, that statement did not do this thread any good. "Just 24v swap it" was the statement here ~10yr ago. This is a forum to share info that can be looked back upon, unlike the FaceBook blunder of a page - which this site is turning into, unfortunately. "Hey I can do it cheaper/better/faster, my friend owns a shop that does swaps for $500, why are you tuning a stock ECU when you can buy a stand alone......" How about letting people do as they please and if they want to share, how is it harming you?

Have you ever seen any of EPIC Motorsports cars? Unopened s54 with bolt-ons raping Corvettes at Sebring was an every weekend event. WITH a stock ECU! I was very sad the day Randy debuted the car with a v8



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For those looking to learn (i know i always am) read some of NPavlo's blog posts: https://blog.pavlotech.com/
Even old dogs learn new tricks. I tuned with my nose and reading plugs 20yrs ago, and today use a portable wide band setup I made. People still look at me funny when I can still sniff the exhaust, pull a plug and can tell near stoich. But hey, let's compare internet 8==D

everyone is awesome in their own minds.
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:30 PM   #25
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Rolling anti-lag

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Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
Have you used VEMS to group it with MS?



Not even sure how you think a MAF is inaccurate. GM/sec is GM/sec and BSFC is BSFC, onyl draw back to a MAF is it can't read positive pressure.

It is a wire that is heated and covers part of the intake track. ECU measure resistance of the wire as the air rushing past it cools it.
What part of that sounds precise vs, VE fueling?

Not even going there with mail order tunes.

TRM vs WOT-Tech same car same day same dyno.

http://s448.photobucket.com/user/For...f6ab5.jpg.html

Good job!



Wolf, AEM, GM, BMW, Megaquirt just to name a couple, with dyno proof.

GM and BMW are not standalones. This isn't even answering my question! I specifically listed and explained why megasquirt is not a quality EMS!



No. Would you like to see the thousands of winpep files?

Again, good job!

$1100 vs software only? Show me back to back of a dyno tune on a N/A 24v vs a stand alone and I will tell you - there's little to no difference. That screen in the MAF is not going to hinder power to a consistent measurable difference. I have SD tuned cars that came MAF, as well as converted stock PCM/ECU/ECM's to ALpha-N.

HAHAHAHAHAH! I'd be happy to show you buddy.
This statement is so wrong it's not even funny! Back to back with little to no difference? Aside from all of the safety functions and other benefits of a standalone, here is my dyno graphs of my technica tuned OBD 2 computer vs. the Vipec computer. NO HARDWARE CHANGES!


(the dyno rpm cable clamp was slipping off of the spark plug wire hence the spotty vipec run. I can provide plenty of other runs done that day supporting those numbers.)
Run 1 was the POS TRM chip.
Run 2 was OBD 2.
Run 3 is Vipec.

The only way i can possibly see a factory computer running an engine better is when it comes to emissions compliance.

Not bashing? Your first post in this thread...



I will repeat, that statement did not do this thread any good. "Just 24v swap it" was the statement here ~10yr ago. This is a forum to share info that can be looked back upon, unlike the FaceBook blunder of a page - which this site is turning into, unfortunately. "Hey I can do it cheaper/better/faster, my friend owns a shop that does swaps for $500, why are you tuning a stock ECU when you can buy a stand alone......" How about letting people do as they please and if they want to share, how is it harming you?

Have you ever seen any of EPIC Motorsports cars? Unopened s54 with bolt-ons raping Corvettes at Sebring was an every weekend event. WITH a stock ECU! I was very sad the day Randy debuted the car with a v8





Even old dogs learn new tricks. I tuned with my nose and reading plugs 20yrs ago, and today use a portable wide band setup I made. People still look at me funny when I can still sniff the exhaust, pull a plug and can tell near stoich. But hey, let's compare internet 8==D

everyone is awesome in their own minds.
Good job! Those skills are still useful if you tuning Webers. But do you have any 20 year old cell phones? printers? computers? How busy is blockbuster these days? Yes, 10-20 years ago, heck even 5 years ago, obd2 tuning would give you better driveability than the best standalone of the time.

But today you can buy a $1.1k ecu that is superior in every way to using the stock DME!!!
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:36 PM   #26
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Northern,
With the price of the particular Link system that NPavlo mentioned being only $1,100 why would you use the factory DME?
As mentioned above, daily driveability is BETTER than factory, and you have so much more flexibility and reliability.
We aren't talking about ecumasters, Megasquirt, or VEMS here...
Because the factory DME is $0. Plus $30 for the good app to flash and $20 for a cable. That's a huge cost differential. And I have like 5 of these ECUs right now with ~3 harnesses. I'm confident that if I really wanted to, I could run an M20 on one (besides having a plan for the cam sensor)

Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
A factory ecu getting airflow from a MAF sensor in no way is as accurate as a set injector flow rate, fuel pressure, and MGP info. (Ideal gas law).
I don't think you understand the number of tables and resolution that a quality standalone offers compared to stock.

I have used an OBD1 computer with TRM chip, a Technica "tuned" OBD2 computer, and the Vipec V88 ecu. There is absolutely no comparison between the stock computers and the Vipec.

Out of curiosity, how many of you that are bashing standalones as being "extremely difficult to setup" and "cost $4k" actually have any experience with a quality standalone EMS? Emtron, Link/Vipec, Motec, Haltech, etc.

Am i the only one here with back to back experience?

Again, there is a time and a place for factory computers. The time was 20 years ago, and the place is on factory setup cars. If you want modern motorsport functions and/or want to heavily modify your engine, in every way a quality standalone is going to be your best solution. $1.1k is not alot of money (I think the same price as MS3 pro currently). It will save you money, time, headache, and offer more safety, fuel efficiency, and reliability than the factory computer ever will.


I'm not here to bash people. Alot of people here put alot of money and time into their cars. I just don't want to see peoples motors getting pointlessly and stupidly destroyed because they can make their car make funny noises and shoot flames out the exhaust.
I don't really want more tables, there's well over 100(known) maps in MS41.

I have an MS2 setup, and very limited experience with a Motec M800 we're wiring up for our FSAE car(overkill to the Nth degree for a bike engine, but someone else made that call)

I actually think MS3pro is more expensive than that linkG4 (which does sound good, maybe If I knew about it - and if it works for OBD2 - I honestly probably would've bought that instead of cables/flash tool/MAF)

I don't understand why we need to shit on people who are doing cool shit with hardware that's practically free, (seemingly) just because they didn't invest $1000+ in some sort of motorsport marketed ECU.

I mean, if a dinosaur of a 153 or 173 DME can run an M20, the siemens ECU can surely take a stock engine with a little more air thrown at it. Plenty of proof of that floating around the internet.
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Old 11-17-2016, 06:46 PM   #27
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Good job! Those skills are still useful if you tuning Webers. But do you have any 20 year old cell phones? printers? computers? How busy is blockbuster these days? Yes, 10-20 years ago, heck even 5 years ago, obd2 tuning would give you better driveability than the best standalone of the time.

But today you can buy a $1.1k ecu that is superior in every way to using the stock DME!!!
No, but I have ~20yr old kids! Bad enough :P

Again, telling someone who hacked a stock ECU to do something that you want/like/promote, is not constructive to the subject or thread title.

Why drive an e30, when you can have an f30! They are 30yr old technology! The suspension sucks and they are death traps!!!

Apples to apples. Not only that, there are race classes that don't allow computer swaps. But hey, let's all be lemmings!
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Old 11-17-2016, 07:01 PM   #28
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No, but I have ~20yr old kids! Bad enough :P

Again, telling someone who hacked a stock ECU to do something that you want/like/promote, is not constructive to the subject or thread title.

Why drive an e30, when you can have an f30! They are 30yr old technology! The suspension sucks and they are death traps!!!

Apples to apples. Not only that, there are race classes that don't allow computer swaps. But hey, let's all be lemmings!


I'm not telling him that he is wrong. He is free to do whatever he wants with his car. As is everyone on here.
My goal is to just to point out and explain why this is not a safe thing to do to your car. I'm simply pointing out the proper way to accomplish what the OP is trying to do which is spool his turbo faster.

Those race classes that don't allow computer swaps usually don't allow computer modifications either... come on now.

I'm not saying that everyone should be driving brand new cars. What I'm saying is that these 20 year old engines use some of the same technologies as the brand new vehicles (such as Vanos) and that the tuning strategies that have come along with these new cars to control these technologies has come along way. What BMW does today to control the Vanos in that F30 is very different than what they did in the E36 and can not be replicated without modern day electronics!


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Old 11-17-2016, 07:29 PM   #29
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Hi.

Nothern,

MS41 is decent. There are fundamental things you can't change though I believe. Like, how would you go to speed density (for real, not a limp table - stop calling it Alpha N like it was "supposed" to be like that - like it is some "secret" mode)? ForcedFirebird confirmed the MAF can't read positive pressure. I highly doubt those modified MAF sensors used for turbo cars actually read TRUE air mass? PLEASE CORRECT ME if I am wrong. I would be really impressed if they did, but I am under the assumption that the input is just scaled wildly to make it "work" with the fundamental mapping that is locked. Regardless, it does not justify "forcing" the factory ecu to do what is needed when the other solutions exist - to me.

Regarding the aftermarket (good ones, like link, motec, emtron), there is much more flexibility. I mentioned some of the stuff you guys saw. I think you guys would get a kick out of it. Between the stuff I mentioned, plus the logging, data export (dash setups for analysis, etc), it is chump change in the grand scheme. A good dash system is at least $2000. Who cares about a $1100 ECU that enables you to do full analysis.

I NEVER post "results" at WOT on any car I calibrate, because I actually do a lot more with transients, part throttle, closed loop cam control/mapping, and more with these ECUs on those older engines to make them drive much better (read that blog), however I have to validate to ForcedFirebird the fact that I every time I take the factory ECU off every engine the cars gain power.

This could be due to simply bad original calibrating (I pay no mind to the original ECU since I throw them away).

This could be due to the original ECUs fundamental functions regarding some forms of emissions compliance affecting consistency, etc (speaking in general)

This could be due to to the new ECUs ability to calculate triggering better (much faster processors, much higher resolution tables, much better interpolation between load sites, etc).

I am going to go out on a limb and say my experience has been a combination of the three.

Here is a S52 with a cone intake, turner shorty header, and 3 inch exhaust ONLY. It even had the stock size intake (3in). The rules for this car for SCCA nationals were very strict on what we could do. The ECU played a huge part in this customers WIN at nationals with his car. More than most could even comprehend. Not just because of peak power...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...33520275_o.png

I have done a bunch of them with similar parts, and full disclosure is this one made the most. They usually end up around 235-245whp.

Nothern, unfortunately this plugs only into OBD1 vanos wiring.
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Old 11-17-2016, 08:35 PM   #30
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Location: Hacienda Hts, CA
Posts: 12,003
I'm learning so much.
So who here wants to polish the loose ends of my Megasquirt tune on my m20 turbo? lol
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abbi.
1991 325iS turbo
2000 328i
2000 Civic DX
1977 CB550F

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