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Old 12-28-2016, 04:20 PM   #16
ForcedFirebird
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I should flow the AFM vs a tube on the bench. That would squash all arguments. I have a strong feeling that the very light spring in it has less to do with the performance gain over the algorithms and speed of the processor.
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Old 12-29-2016, 08:51 AM   #17
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I'm biased, but if we're swapping newer ECU's/harnesses, I think MS41 would be the way to go. Just mimic the M52 cam trigger setup so you can retain the weird cam sensor and then you get live diagnostics/codes/reflashable chip for your efforts.

Still limited to a MAF, but you could do the conversion pretty cheap, except for the euro MS41 crank sensor (or maybe it's possible to drill/tap the block for the rear mount CPS)

A lot of work just to be different, or just to be rid of M1.x
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Old 12-29-2016, 02:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
by dismissing the better motronic system saying the 1.3 is good enough what you are implying is that a NA m20 street engine doesnt really need any standalone at all.
It doesn't. An M20 that retains the stock intake path won't flow enough air or make enough power for the M1.3 system to be a liability. As I have said before, pretty much any serious NA M20 build goes straight for ITBs and then aftermarket EMS is pretty much mandatory.. If you're doing a more radical build with a custom intake manifold and long tube headers stuff, you won't be worried about the cost of standalone vs adapting E36 motronic and probably want the features aftermarket EMS offers.

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Neither of them can recognize positive pressure, yet Porsche was successful for many years using an AFM on OEM turbo engines
Volvo did this with LH-Jetronic 2.X, but it uses a MAF as opposed to a mechanical AFM.
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Old 12-30-2016, 01:52 AM   #19
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i had to go back almost 9 years to find this

Run028 is a 3.1 MM based stroker custom tuned on dyno with original motronic ECU with m30 AFM and BBTB. original chip was based on MarkD chip MM use for motor of same spec that was then fine tuned on a dyno dynamics dyno so about as close to optimal as possible on motronic.

after plot run 031 is with PNP wolf v500 swap (batch fired and dizzy running Alpha-N on stock cast intake) AFM delete

the tune on run 031 is crap extremely rich bottom end and random shitty timing map i found on internet and gave to tuner before install he didnt even modify but im sure he billed me like he did no e30tech tune thread at that point to copy from.

its a 200whp engine so more than stock but pretty mild for these days no more power than what you'd get with a half decent screwed together 2.8L,

it seems to like the AFM delete and its the big six AFM to. i'm not sure where the added power came from if not the from the AFM delete as tune was for all intensive purposes optimal before. only mods were ECU, AFM + flex elbow delete replace with silicone elbow. mechanically engine is identical in both runs and runs are less than a couple months apart

for sure the big stroke and bore draws alot harder on the induction than the stock engine but we arent really proposing this thread for bone stock engines either...

the dyno shop is independent.



anyway that is my attempt at showing what a motronic and AFM delete does on modded m20 stroker engine
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Old 12-30-2016, 02:04 AM   #20
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It doesn't. An M20 that retains the stock intake path won't flow enough air or make enough power for the M1.3 system to be a liability. As I have said before, pretty much any serious NA M20 build goes straight for ITBs and then aftermarket EMS is pretty much mandatory.. If you're doing a more radical build with a custom intake manifold and long tube headers stuff, you won't be worried about the cost of standalone vs adapting E36 motronic and probably want the features aftermarket EMS offers.



Volvo did this with LH-Jetronic 2.X, but it uses a MAF as opposed to a mechanical AFM.
having been on forums like this on 4 continents over past 12 years youd be suprised how many people dont consider tuning one of the most important aspects of the build. the other thing is never underestimate how people will try and adapt shit from other engines to their own to save a few $$$. Each to their own
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Old 12-30-2016, 06:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
i had to go back almost 9 years to find this

Run028 is a 3.1 MM based stroker custom tuned on dyno with original motronic ECU with m30 AFM and BBTB. original chip was based on MarkD chip MM use for motor of same spec that was then fine tuned on a dyno dynamics dyno so about as close to optimal as possible on motronic.

after plot run 031 is with PNP wolf v500 swap (batch fired and dizzy running Alpha-N on stock cast intake) AFM delete

the tune on run 031 is crap extremely rich bottom end and random shitty timing map i found on internet and gave to tuner before install he didnt even modify but im sure he billed me like he did no e30tech tune thread at that point to copy from.

its a 200whp engine so more than stock but pretty mild for these days no more power than what you'd get with a half decent screwed together 2.8L,

it seems to like the AFM delete and its the big six AFM to. i'm not sure where the added power came from if not the from the AFM delete as tune was for all intensive purposes optimal before. only mods were ECU, AFM + flex elbow delete replace with silicone elbow. mechanically engine is identical in both runs and runs are less than a couple months apart

for sure the big stroke and bore draws alot harder on the induction than the stock engine but we arent really proposing this thread for bone stock engines either...

the dyno shop is independent.



anyway that is my attempt at showing what a motronic and AFM delete does on modded m20 stroker engine
Thanks for the info, do you know what headwork /cam this engine had at the time?
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Old 12-30-2016, 06:46 AM   #22
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Fwiw I've seen the markD tunes from MM and they're not even eBay quality.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:03 AM   #23
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M20 Management shootout, MS2 vs Haltech vs?

Another option to think about is Link's PnP ECU for M50 hanress's. At $1,200 it is a fantastic computer!
http://tinyurl.com/zbzqxyt
It does several things that the Wolf, EMU, and Haltech can't do in that pricepoint. Although nothing that is needed on an M20...

For a non-PnP solution, the Link Fury is pretty nice too. Better transients and closed loop knock control than the other guys and has a wideband o2 controller built in. (Roughly $1,600)

If money is no object, then Emtron KV8 spanks all!
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:49 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Fwiw I've seen the markD tunes from MM and they're not even eBay quality.
Not surprised. I've had no issues with the m1.3 as long as I am tuning live.

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Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
Another option to think about is Link's PnP ECU for M50 hanress's. At $1,200 it is a fantastic computer!
http://tinyurl.com/zbzqxyt
It does several things that the Wolf, AMU, and Haltech can't do in that pricepoint. Although nothing that is needed on an M20...

For a non-PnP solution, the Link Fury is pretty nice too. Better transients and closed loop knock control than the other guys and has a wideband o2 controller built in. (Roughly $1,600)

If money is no object, then Emtron KV8 spanks all!
I was waiting for you to come in with your sales pitch!
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:57 AM   #25
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Not surprised. I've had no issues with the m1.3 as long as I am tuning live.



I was waiting for you to come in with your sales pitch!


I wouldn't call that a sales pitch...

For the money, do you think that there is a better PnP M50 computer on the market?

Regardless of money, do you think that there is a better computer out there than Emtron?


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Old 12-30-2016, 08:22 AM   #26
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I wouldn't call that a sales pitch...

For the money, do you think that there is a better PnP M50 computer on the market?

Regardless of money, do you think that there is a better computer out there than Emtron?


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Please read the thread title. Where does it mention m50?
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:25 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
Please read the thread title. Where does it mention m50?


Half of the posts on here have talked about using e36 (m50) harness's and ecu's on M20's.
If you want sequential fueling you'll need a cam sensor anyways. It makes sense to just use an m50 harness instead of cutting up an m20 one.

Is there something that you personally hate about Link ecu's? Or me?
Kinda like how I hate Megasquirt?


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Old 12-30-2016, 08:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
Half of the posts on here have talked about using e36 (m50) harness's and ecu's on M20's.
If you want sequential fueling you'll need a cam sensor anyways. It makes sense to just use an m50 harness instead of cutting up an m20 one.

Is there something that you personally hate about Link ecu's? Or me?
Kinda like how I hate Megasquirt?


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No, no hate at all. I've just been here a long time and read a lot of threads. It comes off as a sales pitch when every thread about a stand alone comes up, you keep it short and (in more words), say "just buy a Link". I know you hate MS, not sure why, but it is an open source ECU with a lot of features that people take advantage of.

Not much different than the huge comprehensive thread that got lost on e30tech about tuning the Motronic systems. Everyone said "just get a PNP", when it does nothing of value for the thread or info in it. When I started posting here a decade ago, the short answer to anyone modifying an m20 was "just put an m50 in it". Posts like that have no weight in a conversation. When a person posts about a feature, map, or even tricked a stock ECU into doing what they want, the end-all be-all answer isn't always the path you would like them to take. Some people enjoy thinking outside the box, and decide they don't want to jump off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings.

Honestly I think the Link looks like a great setup, and is right on target for value vs features, but, the "pigeon on the chessboard" attitude will always get a rebuttal.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:50 AM   #29
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This SpiltSecond MAF writeup seems pretty good to show how the AFM signal is not optimal vs a MAP signal, but I think we all knew that:

https://splitsec.com/wp-content/uplo...Conversion.pdf

I suspect on a NA car this AFM flow restriction is a bigger deal than the comparable round tube replacement (with a generic temp sensor) just because the car is always pulling air through the AFM body and the restriction limits how much air it can pull in. This is why a lot of E30 guys upgrade to the M30 AFM (it's larger diameter and less flow restriction).


On a turbo car I think this is a lesser deal since the pressure the compressor generates can overcome some of the flow losses that were present on the NA car. But still, with a reduced amount of flow losses, you can probably improve response and maybe a bit of power in the range of vacuum to atmospheric (assuming you can adjust fueling to match).

Sort of the same way that reducing bends in your IC piping and intake can increase power/response.

Installing a new charge pipe (same diameter and length of the AFM) with a GM IAT sensor and bung welded on would be a pretty cheap mod--and you could see if there is any difference...

The engine is an air pump, and the more air we can push through, the more power we can make. Less flow restrictions = more air flow through. This is true of both intake side as well as exhaust side of the engine. You have to determine which side of the engine is the limiting restriction and improve that. IE you won't see many gains if your exhaust /turbo is WAY too small and you focus on improving the intake side of the engine.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:58 AM   #30
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I suspect on a NA car this AFM flow restriction is a bigger deal than the comparable round tube replacement (with a generic temp sensor) just because the car is always pulling air through the AFM body and the restriction limits how much air it can pull in). This is why a lot of E30 guys upgrade to the M30 AFM (it's larger diameter and less flow restriction).
On the contrary, I think the electronic themselves have to do more with the MAF vs AFM debate than actual flow. It doesn't take much for an AFM to be out of calibration, and in reality each car was fine tuned at the factory to mate the ECU to the AFM. I backed this up from mix-matching ECU's/AFM's on the dyno. Two perfectly working AFM's, two perfectly working ECU's, same part numbers and all will yield different HP numbers when mix-matched.

Another fallacy is that a bigger MAF = more power (or AFM in the old days of m30 AFM swaps), when in reality if the MAF is larger than the throttle body, point is moot. The MAF diameter needs to be no bigger then the throttle plate. I also have tested BBTB's both on my flow bench and dyno. Going from a 62 to 65mm TB, it was not even a measurable gain aside from initial tip in (obviously more air is getting "gulped" initially).
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