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    #61
    Originally posted by decay View Post
    we're going to *need* it if we don't fix this broken model, yes.

    that doesn't mean we're going to *have* it.
    wow and all along i thought your objection to the pipeline was on moral grounds. instead, perhaps not intending to, you come across as an ordinary green wacko.

    so tell me what exactly you wear in the morning. is it petroleum based?
    “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
    Sir Winston Churchill

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
      you do know petroleum is in EVERYTHING from the laptop or I phone your typing this on, to your stolen backpack, to pill capsules, its used in nearly EVERYTHING.. Even if we find an way power locomotion with out the I.C.E. in the near term, we still need it to build those cars, and supply them.
      yeah can we not reduce things to simple binary, please? we're not talking about an on/off switch here.

      is it okay if i want to *reduce* the amount we use to a sustainable level, while having the pipeline routed the safest way possible?

      and gwb if you'd been sent to war over this shit maybe you'd be closer to understanding my position. there absolutely is a moral argument to be made here, it's just not the only one i have to make. to concede your point- okay, the soles of my boots were made out of petroleum.
      Last edited by decay; 12-08-2016, 08:29 AM.
      past:
      1989 325is (learner shitbox)
      1986 325e (turbo dorito)
      1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
      1985 323i baur
      current:
      1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

      Comment


        #63
        I how about the elastic in you underware, any plastic zippers on jackets or pants, any nylon or polyester in you wardrobe for the day??
        Originally posted by Fusion
        If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
        The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


        The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

        Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
        William Pitt-

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by decay View Post
          yeah can we not reduce things to simple binary, please? we're not talking about an on/off switch here.

          is it okay if i want to *reduce* the amount we use to a sustainable level, while having the pipeline routed the safest way possible?

          and gwb if you'd been sent to war over this shit maybe you'd be closer to understanding my position. there absolutely is a moral argument to be made here, it's just not the only one i have to make. to concede your point- okay, the soles of my boots were made out of petroleum.
          i missed vietnam by 30 days. nixon repealed the draft in 1972. i was 1H and my draft number was 32 and you were inducted on your 19th birthday back then, for me that would have been january of 1973.

          seriously, you and others that served in any capacity for our country for any reason have my undying gratitude, respect, and thanks.

          there is no substitute for oil in our world economy.
          and on moral issues it's wrong to disallow use of fossil fuels in world economies that need it the most.
          there is more than one moral ground to stand on

          and, we have over a 100 year supply of natural gas, and probably the same for oil. these are not dwindling resources in your lifetime or mine.

          frankly fighting in Iraq over oil was not necessarily immoral. you may disagree, but there are two moral sides to the argument.
          “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
          Sir Winston Churchill

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
            I how about the elastic in you underware, any plastic zippers on jackets or pants, any nylon or polyester in you wardrobe for the day??
            sleeve, come on man, i'm trying to meet you here- the soles of my boots were just the first thing i could think of.

            i understand why there is a demand for petroleum.

            given that it is a finite resource- and nobody is arguing with me about that- i think it would be a good thing for all of us if we REDUCED- not ELIMINATED- it.
            past:
            1989 325is (learner shitbox)
            1986 325e (turbo dorito)
            1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
            1985 323i baur
            current:
            1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by decay View Post
              sleeve, come on man, i'm trying to meet you here- the soles of my boots were just the first thing i could think of.

              i understand why there is a demand for petroleum.

              given that it is a finite resource- and nobody is arguing with me about that- i think it would be a good thing for all of us if we REDUCED- not ELIMINATED- it.
              I don't think you appreciate it. I do think you hate it though.

              Its an irrational hatred.
              Last edited by marshallnoise; 12-08-2016, 12:23 PM.
              Si vis pacem, para bellum.

              New Hawtness: 1995 540i/6 Claptrap
              Defunct too: Cirrusblau m30 Project
              Defunct (sold): Alta Vista

              79 Bronco SHTF Build

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by marshallnoise View Post
                I don't think you appreciate it. I do think you hate it though.

                Its an irrational hatred.
                disagree, and here is why.

                our civilization is built around dependence on a non-renewable resource.

                this is going to go *very* badly for us at some point.

                that's not an emotional or irrational statement.
                past:
                1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                1985 323i baur
                current:
                1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by decay View Post
                  disagree, and here is why.

                  our civilization is built around dependence on a non-renewable resource.

                  this is going to go *very* badly for us at some point.

                  that's not an emotional or irrational statement.
                  That some point is so far into the future we can't even pinpoint it. But when that day comes, it will be not so fun. We will adapt and overcome. More importantly, if economics is left to determine when that day comes, we will actually see it coming and make adjustments then. Forcing the issue just makes certain people wealthy at the cost of the public.
                  Last edited by marshallnoise; 12-08-2016, 01:53 PM.
                  Si vis pacem, para bellum.

                  New Hawtness: 1995 540i/6 Claptrap
                  Defunct too: Cirrusblau m30 Project
                  Defunct (sold): Alta Vista

                  79 Bronco SHTF Build

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by decay View Post
                    disagree, and here is why.

                    our civilization is built around dependence on a non-renewable resource.

                    this is going to go *very* badly for us at some point.

                    that's not an emotional or irrational statement.
                    this argument assumes there will be no advancement in technology that replaces fossil fuels when necessary/affordable

                    there already has been (fracking) and will be in the future also

                    we used to burn wood for heat and had no electricity

                    it is not a static world
                    Last edited by gwb72tii; 12-08-2016, 02:31 PM.
                    “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
                    Sir Winston Churchill

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by gwb72tii View Post
                      this argument assumes there will be no advancement in technology that replaces fossil fuels when necessary/affordable

                      there already has been (fracking) and will be in the future also

                      we used to burn wood for heat and had no electricity

                      it is not a static world
                      ok, describing fracking as "progress" is definitely something i'll be contentious with. same with tar sands. these methods are not progress, they're increasingly desperate attempts to extract energy from the ground.

                      i am not envisioning a utopia in which we never again use fossil fuels- we can probably agree that's impossible.

                      but i think it would be a good thing if we moved away from it as a primary energy source- because of shit like this: http://bismarcktribune.com/news/stat...8d9d635be.html happening *right now*.
                      Last edited by decay; 12-08-2016, 10:32 PM.
                      past:
                      1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                      1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                      1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                      1985 323i baur
                      current:
                      1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

                      Comment


                        #71
                        ^

                        Fracking is NOTHING NEW, its has been used since the 1940s to rework underpreformaing conventional wells. It used to be VERY VERY expensive per hole, with new technology and refined techniques its far more cost effective than it was 20 years ago, but still very expensive for what it can return in a conventional well bore. What brought it the forefront was its use in conjunction with the more recent ability to turn that well bore from the vertical plane and transition to the horizontal making tightly locked resource locked in narrow layers, far more producible than just where a conventional bore passes though it. When that tight formation is "fracked" it lets the resource flow from greater distance and easier to the well bore to be pumped out, with the ability to go out into that formation 6-10 thousand feet in all directions form a single point of entry (6 well bores from one pad location) it becomes profitable far quicker than working over conventional wells time and time again or having to only drill 6 holes and frack them Vs 50 or more to produce the same geographical area.

                        The peak oil theory people you are drawing some of your position from, were well aware of the ability to "frack" a well, horizontal drilling was in its infancy, was outlandishly expensive, and confined to surface applications like the contested HDD that this thread is about. It has only been in the last decade and half or so has it been able to transition to resource extraction from a vertical well bore in a cost effective means.

                        This is one of the key flaws of peak oil theory, it 100% discounted advancing technology for extraction, and that the rise in oil pricing will demand the markets development of this tech becoming far more cost effective across the industry.

                        That my friend is the definition of progress.
                        Originally posted by Fusion
                        If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                        The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                        The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                        Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                        William Pitt-

                        Comment


                          #72
                          ok, i might not agree, but i understand your argument and respect your position, based on your knowledge set and experience. i still don't think it's a good idea, but the whole fracking thing is secondary to the actual point i was making.

                          would you care to address the issue of the current leak in Bismarck, which is *exactly why* they wanted the DAPL rerouted through native lands?
                          past:
                          1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                          1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                          1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                          1985 323i baur
                          current:
                          1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

                          Comment


                            #73
                            also- we're gearing up for 2nd wave.

                            first one was a show of force and got the intended result- the gov't is on our side and now if construction continues, it is an illegal action.

                            next one will be entrenching and fortifying.

                            the cavalry came first:



                            and i'm proud of my brothers, but now it's the combat engineers' turn *grin*
                            past:
                            1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                            1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                            1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                            1985 323i baur
                            current:
                            1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Will have to do some research, and without knowing at least a few more specifics it's very hard to make any informed W.A.G.s. from your link I suspect it's a gathering line of low pressure....
                              Originally posted by Fusion
                              If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                              The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                              The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                              Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                              William Pitt-

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                                Will have to do some research, and without knowing at least a few more specifics it's very hard to make any informed W.A.G.s. from your link I suspect it's a gathering line of low pressure....
                                we're getting weather reports from the ground; not going in unprepared, but yeah, anything you hear would be great. i know we're on opposite sides of this thing but everyone going onsite needs to be prepared.

                                we're talking to one of the local casinos about borrowing a convention hall for base-ops but i'll probably be sleeping in a GMC Tahoe or similar
                                past:
                                1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                                1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                                1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                                1985 323i baur
                                current:
                                1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

                                Comment

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