American Indians Still Getting a Raw Deal

[marshallnoise]

I would LIKE your post if I could.

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[decay]

Like the Native American vs Indian twrminology debate, you seem to think that they actually have sovereignty when they in fact, don't. This is the whole purpose of the video to show how they are anything but free.

So you defending the status quo in the name of their "sovereignty," you have as hollow of an argument as you do about people who call Native Americans, Indians.

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#alternativefacts

[decay]

I was commenting up to your post insulting me. After that you definitely have contributed to the discussion.

well, you got insulted because you are holding the people on both sides of the argument to different standards, and i called you out for hypocrisy.

[agent]

Well, you got put in timeout again because you refuse to follow the standards for posting in this subforum, and I'm calling you out for yet another blatant rules violation. As you're quick to point out, you don't get to make up your own.

[jdw]

Well, you got put in timeout again because you refuse to follow the standards for posting in this subforum, and I'm calling you out for yet another blatant rules violation. As you're quick to point out, you don't get to make up your own.

that's cool, i have an alt.

and your selective enforcement of these policies could not be any more obvious.

how have i gotten banned twice while marshall has never gotten even a warning?

it's really unfortunate to see that r3v's staff now includes alt-right nazis.

[marshallnoise]

The plot thickens.

Why would I need a warning?

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[kickinindian]

once again, since i work and have previously lived on rez land. reservations are kinda like states but run by tribal governments and can have their own LEOs, and civil services, as well as pass some laws and taxes, like prohibition of alcohol or in the case of my employer they raised their cigarette taxes in line with Cali, but the tribe gets the taxes (sneaky, sneaky).

Rezes do fall under federal jurisdiction, so as some of my cousins are seriously bummed they cannot start growing pot and selling it like the rest of california, also any employers on reservations dont have to follow state rules, like the mandatory minimum wage increase. ( They are forced to due to the labor market but its not mandated). Most Tribal governments also sign compacts or amendments to allow state LEOs and civil services to come on to reservation property. funny thing tho they dont allow repo's :P

Also for a tribe to become federally recognized, the tribe must submit proof of ancestral lineage, by blood quantum or family tree, and proof of ancestral habitation of land to be ceded, to the US senate. its a really tough process as some tribes have lots of infighting and cannot unite and the senate will deny recognition due to lack of unity.

Ask any more questions and ill try to answer what i can.

[mrsleeve]

once again, since i work and have previously lived on rez land. reservations are kinda like states but run by tribal governments and can have their own LEOs, and civil services, as well as pass some laws and taxes, like prohibition of alcohol or in the case of my employer they raised their cigarette taxes in line with Cali, but the tribe gets the taxes (sneaky, sneaky).

your local county and township has most of those same authorities, and use them to the fullest, County LE sheriffs, county courts, local township cops, or county, township or city taxes, dry counties still exist in KY, AR, MS, TN (off the top of my head) and a few other places, Local sin taxes vary greatly ( look at tobacco taxes in big cities like NYC, SF, etc..). While yes tribes get a bit more anatomy with what they are allowed to do independent of local and state laws, they are really are akin to the local govt's we all deal with outside of the reservations, but supervised by the feds a bit more closely (or less depending on how you want to look at it) .

Fun fact you get some goods that are not importable to the USA shipped to an "Indian Nation" aka reservation. My wife a long time ago was looking at getting a lab created jewelry stone, for something. There was a new version of that stone available in most of the world but for some sales/distribution rights reason could not be shipped to a US address, but could be shipped to an Indian Nation address due to some loop hole. She just scrapped the project rather than deal with the loop hole and try to bug our friends that live on one of the res's

[kickinindian]

your local county and township has most of those same authorities, and use them to the fullest, County LE sheriffs, county courts, local township cops, or county, township or city taxes, dry counties still exist in KY, AR, MS, TN (off the top of my head) and a few other places, Local sin taxes vary greatly ( look at tobacco taxes in big cities like NYC, SF, etc..). While yes tribes get a bit more anatomy with what they are allowed to do independent of local and state laws, they are really are akin to the local govt's we all deal with outside of the reservations, but supervised by the feds a bit more closely (or less depending on how you want to look at it) .

Fun fact you get some goods that are not importable to the USA shipped to an "Indian Nation" aka reservation. My wife a long time ago was looking at getting a lab created jewelry stone, for something. There was a new version of that stone available in most of the world but for some sales/distribution rights reason could not be shipped to a US address, but could be shipped to an Indian Nation address due to some loop hole. She just scrapped the project rather than deal with the loop hole and try to bug our friends that live on one of the res's

Exactly but like I said reservations can bypass state jurisdiction so that is why I used a state as an example instead of a county.

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[Dagamus(NM)]

Gathering of nations in Albuquerque right now. Tribes from all over North America here right now. I think I will take my son to a couple of events this weekend so he can learn about how people express their identities.

Some cool Native art shows in town this weekend. I'll take him to the Ren Faire this weekend to so he can learn about our own heritage as well.

[mbonder]

well, you got insulted because you are holding the people on both sides of the argument to different standards, and i called you out for hypocrisy.

Hopefully when you're back from timeout you read this. I've actually disagreed or "called out" Marshall several times. I've also agreed with him on several occasions. That's the nature of discussion and having your own opinion. I'm simply saying why not disagree without insulting a person?

I really like the additional insights given by kickinindian. It's great to have someone who is actually connected to a Native American tribe weigh in on this discussion and give us first hand insight into the issues associated with the reservation system.

So kickin, if given the choice, would you prefer the US do away with the trust system and the reservations? What are your thoughts on it beyond describing how it operates?

[kickinindian]

Personally I would rather see a totally sovereign nation state, with induction into the UN etc. [emoji14]

But this is the United States so that is not gonna happen. im probably gonna jump around its a really broad subject.

well start here http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/dis...id=2&psid=3348 that is what my Elders told me they had to do to even keep most of the land and be able to develop it in the first place. So its pretty much impossible for me to say that we should just give it up. most of the time its shit land but goddamn it its ours!

Personally my tribe only has a small park since we never made it to full federal recognition do to 2 fighting factions from back in the 60s, one grandma slept with the other grandmas husband way back when and they still held a grudge until recently when one died. they both held records needed for us to submit to the senate and they would not co-operate. Most of my tribe Choinumni ( Choi-num-nee ) have since ether enrolled with the Mono, or chukchansi tribes and live on trust land, or small rez plots. if you like reading this is a book about a white kid that lived with our tribe for some time. https://www.amazon.com/Indian-Summer.../dp/159714035X

So Trust Land is bullshit its technically owned by the feds but leased by the families or tribes, if you have not lived on or used it for, i tried looking in the BIA docs real quick, its kinda hazy but the land will be taken away from you and sold after a year i think. so it kinda forces some families to stay and not go to college and better paying jobs because they dont wanna lose their family homes. Since im coming from a cali perspective we also tend to have smaller tribal sizes compared to new mexico and the mid-west, mostly from California having a bounty system for our body parts back in the day.

Rez land is land under treaty and is the "sovereign Nation" part. Mostly the rez itself is not the problem, its the way the income spent by tribes or distributed, some tribes figure their shit out and build schools and colleges, have health care facilites, and and the whole nine. but some tribes have really bad income inequality, usually big casino tribes, where they have decent tribal enrollment, but after the money starts coming in they start disenrolling people, ive seen a tribe of 2,000 ish trimmed to 250ish, for stupid reasons all in the name of greed. even the last one to speak their language was disenrolled. ( stupid stuff like you live to far from the rez, or this family line had forged paperwork etc.)

Most tribes seem to have a tribal chair-people, and they will keep raising their salaries and and get 100k a month for just having a few meetings while their tribal constituents only get maybe $300 month in per-cap. i think alot of the problems stem form what my dad says is "new money" and not knowing how to manage it.

gotta go but anything more specific please continue to ask!



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[marshallnoise]

Thanks for the insight kickinindian. It sounds like there is a lot of self-inflicted wounds AFTER the government screwed it up, visa-vie tribal chair-people hoarding the profits. Turns out human nature is human after all.

[Dagamus(NM)]

I am not a fan of casinos, but revenue has to come from somewhere. The restrictions on development on tribal lands by the tribe is pretty weird. In New Mexico all tribes have ancient water rights meaning that they supercede any other claim to available water regardless of how old the title to said rights are. Most farms on native land lay fallow though.

I have a lot of colleagues in Radiology and Nuclear Engineering that are native. There is a tricky balancing act for a lot of them between working and living in the city and their family lives back on the pueblos.

Lots of infighting between pueblos around here over resources, land, and casino money. Same as you said in California kickinindian.

[Farbin Kaiber]

When this all gets worked out, I think Native Hawaiians should be able to utilize whatever beneficial legal rights afforded to Native Americans being as they are, in fact...

And, sorry to see -dk get the banhammer. We may disagree a whole lot, but we have had civil conversations and have been capable of overcoming our differences.

Maybe we need an unwritten no-bear-poking gentleman's agreement? We could get further with facts AND get agent cooled of his vendetta for this corner of r3vland.