M106 (E23 745i) in E30

[Terror Factor]

Hi all,

I'll probably be the owner of an 325i E30, with an M106 swap very soon.
The M106 is basically a factory turbocharged M30.

The car has M20 wiring, M30 (535i) ECU, and (currently) tiny M20 injectors. The 745 ecu couldn't be used, as the engine has been converted from auto to manual, so the ECU didn't get a crankshaft signal. The gearboxes that have that sensor, are very rare, so the previous owner wanted to go another direction.

According to him, it needs bigger injectors and a map. He was planning on going standalone (kdfi, megasquirt based, apparently).
Currently, you can only get the car to 2000 rpm, above that, it runs lean. He also has a wideband lambda. The bigger injectors of the 745 don't work, as they are low impedance injectors, and the ecu uses high impedance injectors.

I am very new to BMW's, and relatively new to tuning (did have an MX5 turbo, but also bought it). I'm not sure what would be the best way forward, and what I need.

I've been reading up on the Ostrich and the WAR chip. The Ostrich does look better, and is very cheap, but the WAR chip seems to be easier to get up and running. Or I could go KDFI/megasquirt/VEMS. But to be honest, I wouldn't even know where to take the car to get it tuned, as engine tuning is far from widespread here.

I am thinking about the Ostrich, figuring that if it doesn't work, I won't lose much money, and for that money, it's definitely worth a try, and it's pretty easy to install (the hardware side, that is). No other boards/chips/sensors/plugins needed, AFAIK.

The goal would be to run close to the max boost the engine can take on stock internals, which is quite high (low comp, forged pistons as standard). In numbers, I'm hoping to get it close to 500 hp.
I am basing me on this 'guide': http://www.745i.avulan.eu/More/quickref.html

Any suggestions/ideas/tips?

[Cyrix2k]

No matter what you do, it will need to be tuned. Personally, I'd go standalone as it will give you the greatest flexibility in the long run. Megasquirt is a reasonably mature platform with good, easy to use tuning tools available which makes it an attractive option.

[Terror Factor]

That is true, but I'm not sure if I need that flexibility. I seem to have the need to change cars quite often, so that's why I'm not sure if I should go all out immediately. If I get an Ostrich and decide I want to upgrade, I can sell it and barely lose anything, so that's tempting. It gives me a bit of a trial for the car.

(however, the plan would be to keep this car for quite a while, as there aren't many alternatives that are relatively lightweight and have that much power, for that amount of money, and are pretty reliable)

[Cyrix2k]

I think an MS2, and especially MS1, is cheaper than the Ostrich when all is said and done. Ideally, you would have the Ostrich, then I think the better tuning software costs money, and you also want a chip burner. I've been debating the same thing on my new build... whether to tune the stock ECU, run my existing MS2, or move to MS3.

[LowR3V'in]

Hello.
There is a plug and play megasquirt for the motronic 1.3 harness that diy sells.

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtpnp-g2-b8793-for-the-8792-bmw-e30-325i-p-502.html

Name a feature you want it probably has.
W.A.R chip doesn't even have a datalogger or does it?

Talk to people that have used the w.a.r chips.
but to me it seems like a terrible value considering ostrich or megasquirt.

My b35 made 439hp (in 3rd gear dynojet) @ 5.5krpm with ignition breaking-up
on stock head bolts and 9:1cr.
230,000mi junkyard engine un-opened so believe
these m30s can take abuse very well ;)
Boost it hard!

[Terror Factor]

Well, the WAR chip would be interesting because they provide a decent tune and I know it works. It's pretty hard to find a tuner with some credentials here.

AFAIK the chip burner isn't necessary, you can keep running the ostrich, at least that's how I understood it.

The M106 has an even lower compression (8:1 or even 7:1, would have to look it up again) and stronger internals, so it seems that 500 hp should be very doable. Should be interesting in a stripped down E30! :D

Going from the description of the megasquirt, that seems to include everything I need to get it up and running. I'd just need bigger injectors?
I do know there are people capable of tuning MS here, so that's definitely a big plus. The gadget options of megasquirt could be fun too (android app for logging etc), and it seems to be easier to map than the ostrich.

But it's a 500$ difference of course, lol. The extra's are nice, but probably aren't needed. I don't really care for launch control and stuff like that, the car should just run well, all the rest is a nice plus, but not necessary.

The car also has multiple meters (afr/oil press/oil temp/voltage/boost) already to monitor, so I can definitely keep an eye on things.

[Cyrix2k]

Well, the WAR chip would be interesting because they provide a decent tune and I know it works. It's pretty hard to find a tuner with some credentials here.

AFAIK the chip burner isn't necessary, you can keep running the ostrich, at least that's how I understood it.

I believe this is correct, but you can but the DME back together if you burn a chip. That and if you're happy with the tune, you can sell the ostrich.

The M106 has an even lower compression (8:1 or even 7:1, would have to look it up again) and stronger internals, so it seems that 500 hp should be very doable. Should be interesting in a stripped down E30! :D

Going from the description of the megasquirt, that seems to include everything I need to get it up and running. I'd just need bigger injectors?
I do know there are people capable of tuning MS here, so that's definitely a big plus. The gadget options of megasquirt could be fun too (android app for logging etc), and it seems to be easier to map than the ostrich.

Correct. You can tune it yourself if you feel up to it.

But it's a 500$ difference of course, lol. The extra's are nice, but probably aren't needed. I don't really care for launch control and stuff like that, the car should just run well, all the rest is a nice plus, but not necessary.

The car also has multiple meters (afr/oil press/oil temp/voltage/boost) already to monitor, so I can definitely keep an eye on things.

go here

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/index.php

You can either run a Plug & Play, or do some wiring that really isn't that hard. In the latter case, you have options. You can assemble the unit in which case the cost is $278 or pay someone to build it - diyautotune's assembed units are $432. Basically, you have options, and with some work Megasquirt can be a very cheap yet competent solution.

[LowR3V'in]

Think about the stuff you probably WILL add to megasquirt.
Something like 50bux for a electric boost controller.

How much is a good one you can tune on a laptop?
Or a datalogger?
Can you run wasted spark on the w.a.r chip?

I know you just want to get it up and running but megasquirt is worth it
and u will end up going that route for 500hp anyway.

There are people on the forum and e30tech that will build you a megasquirt in the
motronic case for less also.

[Terror Factor]

The diyautotune site is so confusing lol, there are so many different megasquirts.
I'm guessing that ms1 is a bit limited, so I shouldn't look at those.
ms2 seems to be the most used solution. How about ms3?

I noticed that the map sizes are different, something I know that's important. The unassembled ms2 has 12x12 maps, the mspnp has 12x12 maps and a 16x16 fuel map.
What kind of maps has the stock motronic?

Also, I'm not really planning to upgrade the engine further, unless there would be something fundamentally wrong for reliable operation.
I would probably change cars/engines if I would plan on going much further than a stock block.

[Cyrix2k]

The diyautotune site is so confusing lol, there are so many different megasquirts.
I'm guessing that ms1 is a bit limited, so I shouldn't look at those.
ms2 seems to be the most used solution. How about ms3?

I noticed that the map sizes are different, something I know that's important. The unassembled ms2 has 12x12 maps, the mspnp has 12x12 maps and a 16x16 fuel map.
What kind of maps has the stock motronic?

Also, I'm not really planning to upgrade the engine further, unless there would be something fundamentally wrong for reliable operation.
I would probably change cars/engines if I would plan on going much further than a stock block.

Each newer version of the megasquirt has added features. You're right that the MS1 is pretty old now and limited, but it is still perfectly capable of running your engine. The different versions all operate using the same board, v3, and can be upgraded by swapping out processors should you need more features in the future. The MS2 is probably the one you want and can provide 16x16 fuel & spark maps on the extra firmware. That said, 16x16 probably isn't even needed and 12x12 is just fine - the MS2 can also run on 12x12 maps if you prefer. The values between cells are interpolated so it really doesn't make much difference. The big selling feature on the MS3 is that it can run inline 6 engine with full sequential fuel injection and ignition BUT you need a cam sensor. The M30 was bank fire from the factory so this is actually an improvement. The MS2 provides bank fire and semi-sequential injection which is fine for most people. You can also setup the MS to run virtually any ignition system you want - you can use the factory distributor, Ford EDIS distributorless, solutions from MSD, etc or the MS can directly fire coils for a distributorless system. This adds reliability and generally gives a hotter spark.

tl;dr - the MS2 is probably what you want

[Devin1205]

I have a 85 745 and I run VEMS 3.3. It use to run the stock coil and distributor but now i'm running M54 coils in waste spark. Here are two threads about the car:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1757842-1985-745-rebuild-log

this one next one is only about the VEMS.

http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,1782.0.html

My 745 is a daily driver (use to be and will be soon) this car runs and drives great!

email me if you have any questions. Devin1205@gmail.com

if you decide to go the VEMS route and want my tune let me know and i'll send it over.

[Terror Factor]

Thanks for the offer, Devin! However, I think I'll go megasquirt if I'm going stand alone, seems to be easier to find tuners/support for. Although I know that VEMS is very popular in the UK for BMW's, and there's a good, bmw-oriented tuner for them there.

What injectors would be suggested for this car? Anything that's a straight fit? Since the car needs a tune anyway, I'd better go as big as possible, I guess?

[Cyrix2k]

Just so you know, VEMS is actually based on Megasquirt, although they forked a long time ago so theres a few differences these days. As for injectors, as long as you get the right physical size, they should swap right in. I don't know what they are off the top of my head but it should be easy to look up. Check five-o motorsports. Use a fuel calculator to size the injectors. Shoot for your target horsepower at 80% duty cycle. You don't want to extremely oversized injectors as they will be harder to tune and to get to idle smoothly.

[Terror Factor]

Thanks! I've been asking around for some prebuilt megasquirts, and what stuff I'd need to get it up and running (plug and play).

I'm also looking at KDFi, which is basically an -unlicensed- copy of megasquirt (ms2 extra), but with the advantage that they provide it plug and play for an m30 and they added a bunch of extra sensors as standard.

Thanks for reminding me about the VEMS, I did indeed read it was based of MS, totally forgot about it. But it seems to be a bit more complicated/not as well documented. I think it would be easier to go with the flow on this one :)

[Terror Factor]

Sorry for bumping this, but I still have some new questions.
What exactly is needed next to the megasquirt 2 kit to get the car up and running well?

The KDFi need a new tps sensor and I need to run a vac line to the ECU.

The MS2 (from extraefi.co.uk) can be bought as 'fuel only', or for a car with a distributor, or with wastes spark etc. See here: http://www.extraefi.co.uk/MS_All_products.htm
To which one is the diyautotune unit(http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...unit-p-65.html) comparable?
My neighbour goes to America multiple times a year, so it might be interesting to ask her to buy me one there.

This is de KDFi one: http://www.k-data.org/kdfi-1-4-basic.html (without the proper wiring) or http://www.k-data.org/kdfi-pnp-bmw-m30.html (with the m30 connector).

(EDIT: http://www.k-data.org/kdfi-1-4.html more specs of the coil/injector drivers)

How does this compare with the diyautotune and extraefi ms's?
Would the wiring tutorial from http://wiki.diyefi.co.uk/index.php?t...S_Motronic_Box work on the KDFi, as the price difference between the standard unit and the m30 unit is quite big.

ExtraEFI quoted ~100 gbp for converting the MS to a M30 connector, which is about 130 euro.