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    #16
    I should flow the AFM vs a tube on the bench. That would squash all arguments. I have a strong feeling that the very light spring in it has less to do with the performance gain over the algorithms and speed of the processor.
    john@m20guru.com
    Links:
    Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

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      #17
      I'm biased, but if we're swapping newer ECU's/harnesses, I think MS41 would be the way to go. Just mimic the M52 cam trigger setup so you can retain the weird cam sensor and then you get live diagnostics/codes/reflashable chip for your efforts.

      Still limited to a MAF, but you could do the conversion pretty cheap, except for the euro MS41 crank sensor (or maybe it's possible to drill/tap the block for the rear mount CPS)

      A lot of work just to be different, or just to be rid of M1.x
      Originally posted by priapism
      My girl don't know shit, but she bakes a mean cupcake.
      Originally posted by shameson
      Usually it's best not to know how much money you have into your e30

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by digger View Post
        by dismissing the better motronic system saying the 1.3 is good enough what you are implying is that a NA m20 street engine doesnt really need any standalone at all.
        It doesn't. An M20 that retains the stock intake path won't flow enough air or make enough power for the M1.3 system to be a liability. As I have said before, pretty much any serious NA M20 build goes straight for ITBs and then aftermarket EMS is pretty much mandatory.. If you're doing a more radical build with a custom intake manifold and long tube headers stuff, you won't be worried about the cost of standalone vs adapting E36 motronic and probably want the features aftermarket EMS offers.

        Originally posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
        Neither of them can recognize positive pressure, yet Porsche was successful for many years using an AFM on OEM turbo engines
        Volvo did this with LH-Jetronic 2.X, but it uses a MAF as opposed to a mechanical AFM.
        Last edited by varg; 12-29-2016, 03:09 PM.

        IG @turbovarg
        '91 318is, M20 turbo
        [CoTM: 4-18]
        '94 525iT slicktop, M50B30 + S362SX-E, 600WHP DD or bust
        - updated 1-26

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          #19
          i had to go back almost 9 years to find this

          Run028 is a 3.1 MM based stroker custom tuned on dyno with original motronic ECU with m30 AFM and BBTB. original chip was based on MarkD chip MM use for motor of same spec that was then fine tuned on a dyno dynamics dyno so about as close to optimal as possible on motronic.

          after plot run 031 is with PNP wolf v500 swap (batch fired and dizzy running Alpha-N on stock cast intake) AFM delete

          the tune on run 031 is crap extremely rich bottom end and random shitty timing map i found on internet and gave to tuner before install he didnt even modify but im sure he billed me like he did;) no e30tech tune thread at that point to copy from.

          its a 200whp engine so more than stock but pretty mild for these days no more power than what you'd get with a half decent screwed together 2.8L,

          it seems to like the AFM delete and its the big six AFM to. i'm not sure where the added power came from if not the from the AFM delete as tune was for all intensive purposes optimal before. only mods were ECU, AFM + flex elbow delete replace with silicone elbow. mechanically engine is identical in both runs and runs are less than a couple months apart

          for sure the big stroke and bore draws alot harder on the induction than the stock engine but we arent really proposing this thread for bone stock engines either...

          the dyno shop is independent.



          anyway that is my attempt at showing what a motronic and AFM delete does on modded m20 stroker engine
          Last edited by digger; 12-30-2016, 03:10 AM.
          89 E30 325is Lachs Silber - currently M20B31, M20B33 in the works, stroked to the hilt...

          new build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=317505

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by varg View Post
            It doesn't. An M20 that retains the stock intake path won't flow enough air or make enough power for the M1.3 system to be a liability. As I have said before, pretty much any serious NA M20 build goes straight for ITBs and then aftermarket EMS is pretty much mandatory.. If you're doing a more radical build with a custom intake manifold and long tube headers stuff, you won't be worried about the cost of standalone vs adapting E36 motronic and probably want the features aftermarket EMS offers.



            Volvo did this with LH-Jetronic 2.X, but it uses a MAF as opposed to a mechanical AFM.
            having been on forums like this on 4 continents over past 12 years youd be suprised how many people dont consider tuning one of the most important aspects of the build. the other thing is never underestimate how people will try and adapt shit from other engines to their own to save a few $$$. Each to their own
            89 E30 325is Lachs Silber - currently M20B31, M20B33 in the works, stroked to the hilt...

            new build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=317505

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by digger View Post
              i had to go back almost 9 years to find this

              Run028 is a 3.1 MM based stroker custom tuned on dyno with original motronic ECU with m30 AFM and BBTB. original chip was based on MarkD chip MM use for motor of same spec that was then fine tuned on a dyno dynamics dyno so about as close to optimal as possible on motronic.

              after plot run 031 is with PNP wolf v500 swap (batch fired and dizzy running Alpha-N on stock cast intake) AFM delete

              the tune on run 031 is crap extremely rich bottom end and random shitty timing map i found on internet and gave to tuner before install he didnt even modify but im sure he billed me like he did;) no e30tech tune thread at that point to copy from.

              its a 200whp engine so more than stock but pretty mild for these days no more power than what you'd get with a half decent screwed together 2.8L,

              it seems to like the AFM delete and its the big six AFM to. i'm not sure where the added power came from if not the from the AFM delete as tune was for all intensive purposes optimal before. only mods were ECU, AFM + flex elbow delete replace with silicone elbow. mechanically engine is identical in both runs and runs are less than a couple months apart

              for sure the big stroke and bore draws alot harder on the induction than the stock engine but we arent really proposing this thread for bone stock engines either...

              the dyno shop is independent.



              anyway that is my attempt at showing what a motronic and AFM delete does on modded m20 stroker engine
              Thanks for the info, do you know what headwork /cam this engine had at the time?
              318iS Track Rat :nice: www.drive4corners.com
              '86 325iX 3.1 Stroker Turbo '86 S38B36 325

              No one makes this car anymore. The government won't allow them, normal people won't buy them. So it's up to us: the freaks, the weirdos, the informed. To buy them, to appreciate them, and most importantly, to drive them.

              Comment


                #22
                Fwiw I've seen the markD tunes from MM and they're not even eBay quality.

                Comment


                  #23
                  M20 Management shootout, MS2 vs Haltech vs?

                  Another option to think about is Link's PnP ECU for M50 hanress's. At $1,200 it is a fantastic computer!
                     ACE Performance  LINK M5X - PNP Standalone ECU Calibration Strategy with VE Modeling & Table Blending  Motorsport calibrations done by ACE are nothing new, but what most people don’t know is thepackages we offer are continuously updated. As time goes on, new strategies arediscovered, ECUs are upgraded with new features, and concepts can carry over from oneplatform to another.     One great example of this is the new Link ECU systems have an advanced fuel modelingfunction now. You fully characterize the fuel delivery system of the engine (fuel flow), then enterin basic data like engine displacement and other compensating factors like fuel pressurereference (fuel differential pressure compensation). After the setup is done as accurately aspossible, you then populate the fuel look up table with volumetric efficiency (VE) instead of apercentage of pulse width as in the past. To put it simply, the ECU then references thevolumetric efficiency and then based on the target mixture (and many other factors), calculatesthe exact fuel delivery at all times.   We sell a very complete, fully enabled, fully configured base calibration for the BMW M5X LinkPlug In solution. On top of the improved drivability over the factory ECU, we have recentlyupdated this calibration to utilize new Link functions such as the fuel modeling mentionedabove. We have also developed pre­configured options that can be added on for things likewideband lambda sensors (to enable advanced closed loop mixture functions), fuel pressuresensors (to compensate the fuel model based on differential pressure in the event of fuelstarvation/pressure loss), oil pressure/temperature failsafes (engine limps/trips), and more.   While updating the calibration, we took it one step farther by adding in multi­mapswitching/blending functions that happen automatically. These kinds of connected functionsreally modernize the engine control for this platform. Comparing to something like the factorysolution is just impossible.   The BMW M5X VANOS system has the ability to change the intake cam position approximately20 degrees. This allows the engine to reach a new performance level by improving lower endtorque, while still supporting high rpm performance. We not only utilize all factory performancecontrols of the engine in all our calibrations, but improve them as well.The control system for VANOS is very rudimentary as designed however. It is switched “on andoff” at specific RPMs. Unlike popular belief, the cam position change is not instantaneous at all.Below is a live dyno plot from our BMW M5X Link Plug In solution utilizing the PC (and internal)logging function that comes standard with the ECU system.      The top column shows Engine Speed.The second column shows Throttle Position and Manifold Pressure (engine load).The third column shows the VANOS commanded function (low is off, high is on)The fourth column shows the actual intake cam position (0 is retarded, 20 is fully advanced)   The switch conditions in this case are “on” at 2000rpm, and “off” at 5750rpm.   You can see it takes about two seconds (and 1000rpm) for the cam to finally advance afterbeing commanded on. The time for the cam to fully retard when switched off is approximatelythe same. The whole dyno pass is approximately 12 seconds long, and the offset fromcommanded to actual cam position is approximately 2 seconds. You can also witness the camposition is “lazy” and not an instantaneous switch to fully advanced/retarded.   If you take into account the transient acceleration of an engine (first gear vs fifth gear, or a 5second dyno pass vs a 20 second dyno pass), this creates a situation where not only is itdifficult to predict how the cam position will affect the efficiency (and performance) of the engine,but also adds major challenges to the calibration process.   In most situations with these engines the mapping for fuel and ignition is done without takingthese variables into consideration. The mapping then “expects” the cam position to be in acertain place, but depending on the temperature, transient condition (gear), and more ­ this canchange drastically! This can create inconsistencies in performance, but also the sameregarding the calibrations accuracy.   To correct this issue, we enable a modern VVT function inside the software which allows theECU to “latch” onto the cam position exactly (as seen in the above plot). The actual position ofthe cam then influences a “dual fuel table” function by automatically interpolates between twodifferent tables. 0 = Table 1. 100 = Table 2. Since the cam on this engine doesn’t move verymuch, a linear interpolation works great.      The same function operates dual ignition tables as well.   This strategy effectively closes the loop regarding the dynamic change in engine efficiencybased on cam position. Issues with mixture, timing, knock, and more that were due to thesetransient cam position conditions are eliminated. There are no noticeable/measurable switchover points when the VANOS system comes on/off at any time (including part throttle).      The above shows the strategy put to use at the VANOS switch off point. The “red” run showsthe advanced function.   This also makes our third switch condition for cam switching work even better as well (TP basedas well as RPM window). Even if the cam positioning system failed and got stuck (or inbetween), things will still work.   The new runtime for actual cam position can be viewed live, logged (just like the plot above),and exported over CAN networking to popular motorsport display/logging systems.   This is just another great example of how thorough the ACE calibration and support for motorsports EFI solutions is.Please call or email us with any questions with regard to this information or to discuss how ACE can help you complete an ECU solution for your vehicle.   

                  It does several things that the Wolf, EMU, and Haltech can't do in that pricepoint. Although nothing that is needed on an M20...

                  For a non-PnP solution, the Link Fury is pretty nice too. Better transients and closed loop knock control than the other guys and has a wideband o2 controller built in. (Roughly $1,600)

                  If money is no object, then Emtron KV8 spanks all!
                  Last edited by berlow94; 12-30-2016, 09:27 AM.
                  The best one-stop shopping for German car parts and lifestyle: http://www.gutenparts.com/

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by squidmaster View Post
                    Fwiw I've seen the markD tunes from MM and they're not even eBay quality.
                    Not surprised. I've had no issues with the m1.3 as long as I am tuning live.

                    Originally posted by berlow94 View Post
                    Another option to think about is Link's PnP ECU for M50 hanress's. At $1,200 it is a fantastic computer!
                       ACE Performance  LINK M5X - PNP Standalone ECU Calibration Strategy with VE Modeling & Table Blending  Motorsport calibrations done by ACE are nothing new, but what most people don’t know is thepackages we offer are continuously updated. As time goes on, new strategies arediscovered, ECUs are upgraded with new features, and concepts can carry over from oneplatform to another.     One great example of this is the new Link ECU systems have an advanced fuel modelingfunction now. You fully characterize the fuel delivery system of the engine (fuel flow), then enterin basic data like engine displacement and other compensating factors like fuel pressurereference (fuel differential pressure compensation). After the setup is done as accurately aspossible, you then populate the fuel look up table with volumetric efficiency (VE) instead of apercentage of pulse width as in the past. To put it simply, the ECU then references thevolumetric efficiency and then based on the target mixture (and many other factors), calculatesthe exact fuel delivery at all times.   We sell a very complete, fully enabled, fully configured base calibration for the BMW M5X LinkPlug In solution. On top of the improved drivability over the factory ECU, we have recentlyupdated this calibration to utilize new Link functions such as the fuel modeling mentionedabove. We have also developed pre­configured options that can be added on for things likewideband lambda sensors (to enable advanced closed loop mixture functions), fuel pressuresensors (to compensate the fuel model based on differential pressure in the event of fuelstarvation/pressure loss), oil pressure/temperature failsafes (engine limps/trips), and more.   While updating the calibration, we took it one step farther by adding in multi­mapswitching/blending functions that happen automatically. These kinds of connected functionsreally modernize the engine control for this platform. Comparing to something like the factorysolution is just impossible.   The BMW M5X VANOS system has the ability to change the intake cam position approximately20 degrees. This allows the engine to reach a new performance level by improving lower endtorque, while still supporting high rpm performance. We not only utilize all factory performancecontrols of the engine in all our calibrations, but improve them as well.The control system for VANOS is very rudimentary as designed however. It is switched “on andoff” at specific RPMs. Unlike popular belief, the cam position change is not instantaneous at all.Below is a live dyno plot from our BMW M5X Link Plug In solution utilizing the PC (and internal)logging function that comes standard with the ECU system.      The top column shows Engine Speed.The second column shows Throttle Position and Manifold Pressure (engine load).The third column shows the VANOS commanded function (low is off, high is on)The fourth column shows the actual intake cam position (0 is retarded, 20 is fully advanced)   The switch conditions in this case are “on” at 2000rpm, and “off” at 5750rpm.   You can see it takes about two seconds (and 1000rpm) for the cam to finally advance afterbeing commanded on. The time for the cam to fully retard when switched off is approximatelythe same. The whole dyno pass is approximately 12 seconds long, and the offset fromcommanded to actual cam position is approximately 2 seconds. You can also witness the camposition is “lazy” and not an instantaneous switch to fully advanced/retarded.   If you take into account the transient acceleration of an engine (first gear vs fifth gear, or a 5second dyno pass vs a 20 second dyno pass), this creates a situation where not only is itdifficult to predict how the cam position will affect the efficiency (and performance) of the engine,but also adds major challenges to the calibration process.   In most situations with these engines the mapping for fuel and ignition is done without takingthese variables into consideration. The mapping then “expects” the cam position to be in acertain place, but depending on the temperature, transient condition (gear), and more ­ this canchange drastically! This can create inconsistencies in performance, but also the sameregarding the calibrations accuracy.   To correct this issue, we enable a modern VVT function inside the software which allows theECU to “latch” onto the cam position exactly (as seen in the above plot). The actual position ofthe cam then influences a “dual fuel table” function by automatically interpolates between twodifferent tables. 0 = Table 1. 100 = Table 2. Since the cam on this engine doesn’t move verymuch, a linear interpolation works great.      The same function operates dual ignition tables as well.   This strategy effectively closes the loop regarding the dynamic change in engine efficiencybased on cam position. Issues with mixture, timing, knock, and more that were due to thesetransient cam position conditions are eliminated. There are no noticeable/measurable switchover points when the VANOS system comes on/off at any time (including part throttle).      The above shows the strategy put to use at the VANOS switch off point. The “red” run showsthe advanced function.   This also makes our third switch condition for cam switching work even better as well (TP basedas well as RPM window). Even if the cam positioning system failed and got stuck (or inbetween), things will still work.   The new runtime for actual cam position can be viewed live, logged (just like the plot above),and exported over CAN networking to popular motorsport display/logging systems.   This is just another great example of how thorough the ACE calibration and support for motorsports EFI solutions is.Please call or email us with any questions with regard to this information or to discuss how ACE can help you complete an ECU solution for your vehicle.   

                    It does several things that the Wolf, AMU, and Haltech can't do in that pricepoint. Although nothing that is needed on an M20...

                    For a non-PnP solution, the Link Fury is pretty nice too. Better transients and closed loop knock control than the other guys and has a wideband o2 controller built in. (Roughly $1,600)

                    If money is no object, then Emtron KV8 spanks all!
                    I was waiting for you to come in with your sales pitch!
                    john@m20guru.com
                    Links:
                    Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
                      Not surprised. I've had no issues with the m1.3 as long as I am tuning live.



                      I was waiting for you to come in with your sales pitch!


                      I wouldn't call that a sales pitch...

                      For the money, do you think that there is a better PnP M50 computer on the market?

                      Regardless of money, do you think that there is a better computer out there than Emtron?


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                      The best one-stop shopping for German car parts and lifestyle: http://www.gutenparts.com/

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by berlow94 View Post
                        I wouldn't call that a sales pitch...

                        For the money, do you think that there is a better PnP M50 computer on the market?

                        Regardless of money, do you think that there is a better computer out there than Emtron?


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        Please read the thread title. Where does it mention m50?
                        john@m20guru.com
                        Links:
                        Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
                          Please read the thread title. Where does it mention m50?


                          Half of the posts on here have talked about using e36 (m50) harness's and ecu's on M20's.
                          If you want sequential fueling you'll need a cam sensor anyways. It makes sense to just use an m50 harness instead of cutting up an m20 one.

                          Is there something that you personally hate about Link ecu's? Or me?
                          Kinda like how I hate Megasquirt?


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          The best one-stop shopping for German car parts and lifestyle: http://www.gutenparts.com/

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by berlow94 View Post
                            Half of the posts on here have talked about using e36 (m50) harness's and ecu's on M20's.
                            If you want sequential fueling you'll need a cam sensor anyways. It makes sense to just use an m50 harness instead of cutting up an m20 one.

                            Is there something that you personally hate about Link ecu's? Or me?
                            Kinda like how I hate Megasquirt?


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                            No, no hate at all. I've just been here a long time and read a lot of threads. It comes off as a sales pitch when every thread about a stand alone comes up, you keep it short and (in more words), say "just buy a Link". I know you hate MS, not sure why, but it is an open source ECU with a lot of features that people take advantage of.

                            Not much different than the huge comprehensive thread that got lost on e30tech about tuning the Motronic systems. Everyone said "just get a PNP", when it does nothing of value for the thread or info in it. When I started posting here a decade ago, the short answer to anyone modifying an m20 was "just put an m50 in it". Posts like that have no weight in a conversation. When a person posts about a feature, map, or even tricked a stock ECU into doing what they want, the end-all be-all answer isn't always the path you would like them to take. Some people enjoy thinking outside the box, and decide they don't want to jump off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings.

                            Honestly I think the Link looks like a great setup, and is right on target for value vs features, but, the "pigeon on the chessboard" attitude will always get a rebuttal.
                            john@m20guru.com
                            Links:
                            Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

                            Comment


                              #29
                              This SpiltSecond MAF writeup seems pretty good to show how the AFM signal is not optimal vs a MAP signal, but I think we all knew that:



                              I suspect on a NA car this AFM flow restriction is a bigger deal than the comparable round tube replacement (with a generic temp sensor) just because the car is always pulling air through the AFM body and the restriction limits how much air it can pull in. This is why a lot of E30 guys upgrade to the M30 AFM (it's larger diameter and less flow restriction).


                              On a turbo car I think this is a lesser deal since the pressure the compressor generates can overcome some of the flow losses that were present on the NA car. But still, with a reduced amount of flow losses, you can probably improve response and maybe a bit of power in the range of vacuum to atmospheric (assuming you can adjust fueling to match).

                              Sort of the same way that reducing bends in your IC piping and intake can increase power/response.

                              Installing a new charge pipe (same diameter and length of the AFM) with a GM IAT sensor and bung welded on would be a pretty cheap mod--and you could see if there is any difference...

                              The engine is an air pump, and the more air we can push through, the more power we can make. Less flow restrictions = more air flow through. This is true of both intake side as well as exhaust side of the engine. You have to determine which side of the engine is the limiting restriction and improve that. IE you won't see many gains if your exhaust /turbo is WAY too small and you focus on improving the intake side of the engine.
                              Last edited by tschultz; 12-30-2016, 09:56 AM.
                              http://www.Drive4Corners.com

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by tschultz View Post
                                I suspect on a NA car this AFM flow restriction is a bigger deal than the comparable round tube replacement (with a generic temp sensor) just because the car is always pulling air through the AFM body and the restriction limits how much air it can pull in). This is why a lot of E30 guys upgrade to the M30 AFM (it's larger diameter and less flow restriction).
                                On the contrary, I think the electronic themselves have to do more with the MAF vs AFM debate than actual flow. It doesn't take much for an AFM to be out of calibration, and in reality each car was fine tuned at the factory to mate the ECU to the AFM. I backed this up from mix-matching ECU's/AFM's on the dyno. Two perfectly working AFM's, two perfectly working ECU's, same part numbers and all will yield different HP numbers when mix-matched.

                                Another fallacy is that a bigger MAF = more power (or AFM in the old days of m30 AFM swaps), when in reality if the MAF is larger than the throttle body, point is moot. The MAF diameter needs to be no bigger then the throttle plate. I also have tested BBTB's both on my flow bench and dyno. Going from a 62 to 65mm TB, it was not even a measurable gain aside from initial tip in (obviously more air is getting "gulped" initially).
                                john@m20guru.com
                                Links:
                                Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

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