General Motors Is Headed For Bankruptcy -- Again

[mulletman]

Some people don't really seem to understand that bankruptcy =/= going out of business. GM will still be around... Bankruptcy is a way for a company to shed some costs, re-negotiate debt payments, and emerge with a profitable business model.

Any defense of GM really pisses me off, actually. As a person who works in the airline industry, I'd like to point out the massive double standard. GM gets to have an absolutely shit business model, get bailed out, still have a shit business model, and have people clamoring for preventing a bankruptcy.

Hawaiian Airlines has been through bankruptcy 4 times in the last 25 years. They're still here. United Airlines, American Airlines, Delta Airlines, US Airways, Northwest Airlines, Continental Airlines... all have gone through the bankruptcy process. All are massive companies who employ huge numbers of people. None were given some taxpayer handout in order to bail them out. All are still around, and very much in business. Most of them are profitable, or at least breaking even. Fuck GM. If you can't manage your company in a way that is profitable, that's not the problem of the rest of America. If you need a bankruptcy in order to get your shit in order, then that's what it takes. I'm sick of watching everyone in my industry get the shaft, while everyone else in the nation whines and gets massive handouts. Fucking hell.

[Massimo]

Some people don't really seem to understand that bankruptcy =/= going out of business. GM will still be around... Bankruptcy is a way for a company to shed some costs, re-negotiate debt payments, and emerge with a profitable business model.

Any defense of GM really pisses me off, actually. As a person who works in the airline industry, I'd like to point out the massive double standard. GM gets to have an absolutely shit business model, get bailed out, still have a shit business model, and have people clamoring for preventing a bankruptcy.

Hawaiian Airlines has been through bankruptcy 4 times in the last 25 years. They're still here. United Airlines, American Airlines, Delta Airlines, US Airways, Northwest Airlines, Continental Airlines... all have gone through the bankruptcy process. All are massive companies who employ huge numbers of people. None were given some taxpayer handout in order to bail them out. All are still around, and very much in business. Most of them are profitable, or at least breaking even. Fuck GM. If you can't manage your company in a way that is profitable, that's not the problem of the rest of America. If you need a bankruptcy in order to get your shit in order, then that's what it takes. I'm sick of watching everyone in my industry get the shaft, while everyone else in the nation whines and gets massive handouts. Fucking hell.

I agree with everything you say.

[Vedubin01]

Some people don't really seem to understand that bankruptcy =/= going out of business. GM will still be around... Bankruptcy is a way for a company to shed some costs, re-negotiate debt payments, and emerge with a profitable business model.

Any defense of GM really pisses me off, actually. As a person who works in the airline industry, I'd like to point out the massive double standard. GM gets to have an absolutely shit business model, get bailed out, still have a shit business model, and have people clamoring for preventing a bankruptcy.

Hawaiian Airlines has been through bankruptcy 4 times in the last 25 years. They're still here. United Airlines, American Airlines, Delta Airlines, US Airways, Northwest Airlines, Continental Airlines... all have gone through the bankruptcy process. All are massive companies who employ huge numbers of people. None were given some taxpayer handout in order to bail them out. All are still around, and very much in business. Most of them are profitable, or at least breaking even. Fuck GM. If you can't manage your company in a way that is profitable, that's not the problem of the rest of America. If you need a bankruptcy in order to get your shit in order, then that's what it takes. I'm sick of watching everyone in my industry get the shaft, while everyone else in the nation whines and gets massive handouts. Fucking hell.

I agree with your thoughts but George Bush did help the airlines right after 9/11 with around $18 Billion in help called the Air Transportation Safety and Stabilization Act. AS well as started to add baggage fees that total Billions a year.



ex Comair Pilot here.

[Morrison]

But during a bankruptcy isn't someone left holding their dick? Like maybe whoever they owed money to like suppliers, banks, etc?

[Vedubin01]

But during a bankruptcy isn't someone left holding their dick? Like maybe whoever they owed money to like suppliers, banks, etc?

Depends on what kind of Bankruptcy. Most of the time is a restructure, and the creditors will get paid but pennies on the dollar. Its really up to the bankruptcy judge.

[QUKBMER]

You mean that GM didn't learn back in the 80"s and 90"s when they where selling import cars under the chevy/geo badging (i am refering to toyota not isuzu lol )and learn from japanese of reliablity and making a good car that would last and stand the test of time? Maybe it is time to call in the germans or maybe let them buy out GM, like fiat did with chrysler? I don't ever see this happening with ford for some reason. I have been working in the automotive industry for over 24 years now and they really need to get there act together soon. Its really sad to see this happening in our country but they keep sourcing things out to another country to get shit done or bail out. Is it a blessing or the wrong thing to do?

[Jorgen]

But during a bankruptcy isn't someone left holding their dick? Like maybe whoever they owed money to like suppliers, banks, etc?

Suppliers got paid. At least the ones critical to building cars. It was a little scary for some for awhile but most got paid everything just a little late at worst.

[Jorgen]

I agree. Hyundai is doing an awesome job. Great looking cars with alot of amenities for a cheap price. No they arent built well but with a 10 year 100k mile warranty who cares

They really aren't built badly. Better than main for the big guys from 5-10 years ago.

[Jorgen]

I may have a slight bias working in the auto industry but there is a ton that economics and arm chair pundents can't wrap their heads around with this industry. There would have been mass impact on the US and global economies had the bail outs not occured. It wouldn't just have been Detroit turning into a third world esque area it would have have impacted everyone. Any money that will or won't be lost on the bailouts was less than would have been lost had they not occured.

GM is doing some things right not that are very questionable to me but that is stuff very few of you even see. Regarding hatred of their design, do people really thing that it is easy to design a new car and can happen over night. I am dealing with cars right now that you won't even hear about until 2016 or later, it takes a ton of time and some of the things coming out right now are still crap from the old companies. Chrysler was lucky with the Fiat situation, they had a way to steal underpinnings and not have to do a full new car. The Dart isn't anything new. Fords recent designs aren't really anything new, they are all just repourpsed from other countries and companies.

Sorry that rant went way off the tracks.

Opinion summary:

Initial bailouts were more than necessary.
GM won't hit bankruptcy again within the next 10 years.
Cars coming out now from GM are not from their new GM, they are mainly legacy with some tweaks to try and sell better in the new market.
Designing a car people like is a tough job, does anyone here want to try and draw a picture of what the public will like in a car 5-8 years from now?

[Ryan Stewart]

Maybe you should check out the new GM interiors, they are night and day from what they were a decade ago.

But still night and day from the competition. I havent owned but been in multiple GM cars over the past few years. The interiors are still woefully disappointing. Compared to a Kia Optima I wouldnt even give a Malibu a second look. Its possible that the underlying quality might be better but its hard to get past that matte grey plastic.

Fords are nicer in some models but the price reflects it. To get a Ford worth owning you are scraping the bottom of BMW money.

[Ryan Stewart]

I agree with your thoughts but George Bush did help the airlines right after 9/11 with around $18 Billion in help called the Air Transportation Safety and Stabilization Act. AS well as started to add baggage fees that total Billions a year.



ex Comair Pilot here.

While a lot of that situation pisses me off that situtation cant really compare because there is a difference between having an unsustainable model and having your business basically shut down for a prolonged period and crippled for even longer due to a terrorist event.

[noid]

I may have a slight bias working in the auto industry but there is a ton that economics and arm chair pundents can't wrap their heads around with this industry. There would have been mass impact on the US and global economies had the bail outs not occured. It wouldn't just have been Detroit turning into a third world esque area it would have have impacted everyone. Any money that will or won't be lost on the bailouts was less than would have been lost had they not occured.

GM is doing some things right not that are very questionable to me but that is stuff very few of you even see. Regarding hatred of their design, do people really thing that it is easy to design a new car and can happen over night. I am dealing with cars right now that you won't even hear about until 2016 or later, it takes a ton of time and some of the things coming out right now are still crap from the old companies. Chrysler was lucky with the Fiat situation, they had a way to steal underpinnings and not have to do a full new car. The Dart isn't anything new. Fords recent designs aren't really anything new, they are all just repourpsed from other countries and companies.

Sorry that rant went way off the tracks.

Opinion summary:

Initial bailouts were more than necessary.
GM won't hit bankruptcy again within the next 10 years.
Cars coming out now from GM are not from their new GM, they are mainly legacy with some tweaks to try and sell better in the new market.
Designing a car people like is a tough job, does anyone here want to try and draw a picture of what the public will like in a car 5-8 years from now?

If GM were to go bankrupt properly, its assets would be liquidated and sold to other companies. If the void created in the market is smaller then the size of GM that means GM was to big to be efficient in its industry. Employees will find employment in either the other auto manufacturers who will fill the created demand. Any employees who are left unemployed are employees that the industry can not efficiently support.

Guess what? No tax dollars have been spent yet in this scenario. Imagine half of the employees find new employment in the other firms that are in the same industry who are increasing their workforces to compensate for increased demand. The government now has $26 BILLION in tax dollars free to provide retraining and assistance. Assuming you took half of GM's world wide work force, the government could have essentially given each and every employee $265,000 for the amount of money they paid into the bailout.

Private gains with public losses is a terrible theory to live by. Contrary to your belief GM is not to big to fail. GM only makes up just under 1% of the US GDP in relation to its operating revenue. Do you care to know how much in relation to the US GDP they make in net profit? 0.005% of US GDP.

[Vedubin01]

While a lot of that situation pisses me off that situtation cant really compare because there is a difference between having an unsustainable model and having your business basically shut down for a prolonged period and crippled for even longer due to a terrorist event.

Airlines were already losing their ass before 9/11 due to over spending. 9/11 was icing on the cake.

[mulletman]

I agree with your thoughts but George Bush did help the airlines right after 9/11 with around $18 Billion in help called the Air Transportation Safety and Stabilization Act. AS well as started to add baggage fees that total Billions a year.



ex Comair Pilot here.

True. Although baggage fees are a business model decision, rather than any sort of external bailout.

Yikes man, I'm hoping you got out of Comair before it all came down. If not, best of luck. I'm a QX guy, and if you're in need of a job at another regional with an infinite upgrade, let me know.

Edit: Wheel and tire fitment specs in your sig? :D

[rwh11385]

But still night and day from the competition. I havent owned but been in multiple GM cars over the past few years. The interiors are still woefully disappointing. Compared to a Kia Optima I wouldnt even give a Malibu a second look. Its possible that the underlying quality might be better but its hard to get past that matte grey plastic.

Fords are nicer in some models but the price reflects it. To get a Ford worth owning you are scraping the bottom of BMW money.

The 2008 redesign Malibu was a move in a slightly better direction, but like its sibling I drove a lot, the G6, it still had room to improve. (same matte grey) But look at the vette interior, not even in the same ballpark C5 vs C6.

I was decently happy with my Elantra in Miami a while ago, but my recent Cruze rental was much better. Soft black vinyl, not dull hard plastic like the G6.

Yeah, it's hard to get cheap and good. After complaining about quality for years, now people notice prices rise when companies decide to make better cars. Then again, it seems people consider it a better value.

Ford had a better Focus for years than what we got in the States, but didn't think we'd pay what it would cost to sell it here, so they limped the shitbox 2nd gen slightly updated while Europe got a good one. I think people are happier now - but gas prices made smaller cars more popular instead of just for broke asses who can't afford anything else.