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Alu M52 Overheating --- Update: Sill having issues

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    Alu M52 Overheating --- Update: Sill having issues

    This swap just hasn't been smooth sailing at all for me...

    The first issue I'm having now is that despite how thorough I bleed the cooling system, the car still boils over. Here's the setup:
    Freshly rebuilt Aluminum M52 by a reputable BMW shop
    OEM/Behr E36 Radiator
    Custom mount to move the bottom mounts forward, increasing space for an electric fan/motor
    Flex-a-lite Flex-Wave Puller Fan: 16" rated for 3,000CFM
    Custom mounts to fasten the fan directly on the radiator
    80/88° Radiator Temp switch
    I don't know what degree thermostat
    2.0 Bar Reservoir Cap
    Zerex G-05 coolant + water, unknown ratio at this point.
    Everything else, stock
    No AC or aux/pusher fan
    Ambient temperature has been between 50-75°F.

    Since I'm running OBD2, I have a scanner hooked up to read the temp at all times.
    My method to bleed it has been to put the front of the car on jackstands, and run the engine, revving every so often, and squishing the hoses. I've witnessed bubbles continuing to appear well after 20 minutes of revving and squishing and refilling. The car's temp had stabilized at about 96°C.

    This is my daily, so I drive it to work. It takes a few minutes to get on the freeway, at which point the temp has almost come up to 90°. Once I get on the freeway, whether it's morning/afternoon/night, I have to pull off again. The temp almost immediately shoots up into the 110's. So I'll get off the freeway and pull over, and the temp immediately falls as I park. I'll wait there for a couple minutes, check the water level, which is usually now between an half to a quarter, and then I'll get back on the freeway. Here's the crazy part: the temp is stable for the rest of the journey! It sits around 94-98° for the rest of the drive, whether or not it's on the freeway or around town.

    It drives me nuts. Sometimes I've refilled the reservoir right when I pull over, and sometimes I don't, and I'll do it in a few hours. Yes, I have taken the cap off slowly while it's hot, only for steam to come out because the level is very low. I would refill it and just keep going.
    I've noticed leaks everywhere. I've tighten the clamps everywhere, so now it's leaking from just two spots: the Reservoir Cap, and the junction at the back of the head, where the heater hose connects (it leaks between the head and that junction, at the gasket). I've also noticed a bit of water from the heater box drain tube, that drains on top of the transmission. I took apart my center console to learn when fluid comes out of that drain tube, and it was inconclusive; water came out in such a small amount that I couldn't determine it was really a leak.

    It's crazy that it will overheat in the first 10 minutes of driving, and then be fine for the next 20+. It only does it at the beginning, so I pull over, wait, and then continue like normal.

    Other observations: I checked all the spark plugs. They look fine (I took pictures too). I checked the oil. The level was a bit high, so I though Oh crap, there might be water in the pan. So I drained about a cup's worth of oil: it looked fine. I did an oil change about 400 miles ago, so it was still somewhat clear. I didn't see any water come out, so I guess I just put a little too much oil in last time.

    The next issue is about the codes: P1519, P0135, P0141.
    P1519 is an error in the cam timing. It suggests I need to retime the cams. Another source suggested the issue lies with the Vanos solenoid. I replaced that with a used unit, cleared the code, and the code came back.
    The symptom of the code can be a rough idle, loss of power, and poor fuel economy. But since this swap is new to me, I don't know what the baseline is for correct power and economy. I do however have a rough idle. I thought it was due to the engine mounts, because it shakes pretty bad. But it goes right away as soon as I rev.
    The Vanos was rebuilt by me using the Beisan Systems rebuild kit. I followed the instructions, and when I was done, I gave it to the engine builder who installed it.
    It's worth mentioning that I have S50 cams, so maybe, since there's no tune on this stock ECU, maybe I'm getting the code because the cams are ground differently. Is that a concern that the ECU would catch?

    The next two codes are for the two O2 sensors. Since I'm using a Z3 engine, I have a Z3 harness and ECU, which uses only 1 upstream/pre-cat and 1 downstream/post-cat sensor. The codes are specifically for the heating elements. I searched (I always search before asking) for answers, and it led me to this rabbit hole of issues:
    https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...v-backfeed-diy
    https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...roblem?t=55208
    https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...h-idle?t=74958
    https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...ckfeed?t=80056
    https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for.../page2?t=76548

    Basically, 24v swaps have been known to have this issue withe heating elements. There is a fix, but the exact issue still is a mystery. I haven't checked my car for the voltages like he instructs, and I haven't wired in the fix yet. I've been stuck with the first two^ problems so far. I did however check the wiring to the sensors, finding 12V / 4.5V / 4.2V / Ground in each of the looms, and both sensors gave me consistent continuity & resistance checks. I don't remember the exact values or wires.

    But I do see some relationships discussed; the dysfunctional O2 elements produce similar symptoms as the faulty Vanos. I don't know/think there is any correlation, but it was interesting to find that in my case.

    One of the scariest issues I'm witnessing is what I think is engine knocking. I can hear faint pings when the engine is coming up to temp, for about the first 10-15 minutes, during all levels of throttle input, and most notable around 3k rpm. I don't really know if what I'm hearing is pinging, but I do know the sound goes away after a while. But again, I checked the spark plugs, they're pretty clean. I'm running 91 gas from Shell. My exhaust is very black, though. I'd consider this amount of soot to be abnormal for a new engine.

    Sorry for the wall of text. I'm just paranoid and terrified that my new engine is toast. I'm running out of time and patience and money. If I can fix anything, I really want to, but if I have to take it to a shop, I will. I haven't brought it back to the engine builder, because I want to give him enough information to work with first.

    I've gone the extra mile to make sure almost everything is new and done correctly from the start, making this a lengthy and expensive project.
    So it shouldn't be this damn hard to just swap and engine and enjoy the car, whereas others can do half the work and get a reliable beater.

    Thanks!

    Currently building a badass coffee table
    Random stuff on insta @kevanromero

    #2
    Is the lower radiator hose hot when you are experiencing the overheating issue? If the thermostat is stuck closed the lower radiator hose will be much cooler and you will see higher temps. This doesn't explain why it would be OK after you stop and continue on unless the t-stat opens during that time where it is sitting.

    You say the radiator cap is leaking...is it leaking around the cap itself or from the small overflow tube (the overflow tube is to the right of the fitting where the small hose connects to the upper radiator)? If it leaking from the overflow tube that implies the cap is lifting due to pressure, if it is leaking around the cap, the cap is either bad or the reservoir is warped/damaged not allowing a seal. Is the cooling system building pressure even with the small leaks?

    Bummer about the leak on the back of the head, that gasket will be a bear to change in the tight engine bay.

    Lot's of directions you can go from here depending on your answers.


    You should look into a tune for the new cams, the engine would run with a stock tune but it won't be optimized for the set-up. The vanos timing may be off, so that should be checked with the proper tools to hold the cams/flywheel at TDC. If you are hearing pinging, it could be partially the result of the tune, cam timing, poor spray pattern from the injectors, etc. etc.

    I'm not sure what to think about the O2 sensor issue, most of the threads seem to be dealing with OBD1 cars. Are you experiencing any dirveability issues? Since you are running pre and post cat sensors, I would make sure the wiring is not switched between them - front to back/back to front before going further with any kind of fix. My OBD2 swap M52 has the post cat sensor deleted in the tune with no codes and smooth power delivery.


    These swaps are never straightforward because each set-up is just a little bit different. It takes some time to get it sorted but keep chipping away at it.

    Comment


      #3
      Is the fan blowing the correct direction? Have you tried just running a clutch fan?

      Did the shop time cert the block?

      P1519 - My guess the Vanos doesn't have 8.5MM of travel

      P0135, P0141 Id check your 02 wiring and trace it back to the DME and check its pin out to make sure its wired like the configuration you want it.
      I've only done STD E36 harness with 4 o2 plugs, deleting rear 02's.

      A lot of shops don't go the extra mile to make sure everything is right, In retrospect they don't charge all that extra time either. I've put in my share of hours on cars at the shop to make sure everything is proper.

      I was up above it, Now I'm down in it ~ Entropy - A Build thread.
      @Zakspeed_US

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by mjweimer View Post
        When I had bleed the system in my driveway, I had felt all the hoses as it got up to temp.
        But this morning, on my way to work, the temp spiked and I pulled over--I grabbed the lower rad hose like you said and it was cold! Freakin fantastic. I waited there, the temp dropped, and then I drove away. The temp stayed around 96. I pulled over again, checked the lower hose, and it was hot.
        So I need to find out what thermostat is in there and install a lower one.

        The leak from the reservoir comes from between the cap and the reservoir. It does also expel water through the vent hose, which I have routed into the driver wheel well. It's definitely spilling down there.

        I do still loose fluid and it's hard to keep track of where, so I can't track if it is building pressure properly.

        So for now, my solution is to find a lower temp thermostat, replace the reservoir, and maybe the gasket at the back.

        The fan is blowing into the engine bay, yes.

        Yes, the block was time-certed.

        About getting a tune- I am planning to CA BAR this car, so I'm assuming I shouldn't have a tune if I want to pass emissions. Although it might make sense to have a correct "S50" tune that can pass emissions... I really don't know, I'd have to ask tuners and judge what I can afford based on if it's necessary. That sort of makes sense.

        The wiring harness was done by a member on here; I sent it to him, he re-pinned the C101, and labeled everything. He knows my goals and I assume he configured everything correctly for me.

        Yes, I'll check the O2 wiring soon. When I cleared the codes earlier for the cam timing, it cleared them all. Only the cam code has come back. Time will tell.

        At least now I have more to discuss with my engine builder, he'll be able to tell me what thermostat is in there.
        Oh and he rebuilt the engine but I did all the work to swap it. So he wouldn't be at fault for not going the extra mile on that front.

        Thanks guys!

        Currently building a badass coffee table
        Random stuff on insta @kevanromero

        Comment


          #5
          Update, I replaced the thermostat with an 80° unit.

          It seemed to bleed fine.

          But it still has the overheating problem. I get on the freeway after about 5 minutes and then it overheats, but not as bad as before. It goes up to 110° but didn't stay there when I pulled off.

          The lower rad hose was warm but not hot.

          After sitting, it cooled to 88°, stayed steady in the 90s, but crawled up to 103 by the end of the drive (about half an hour).

          Any ideas?

          Currently building a badass coffee table
          Random stuff on insta @kevanromero

          Comment


            #6
            Try a stock clutch fan?

            I was up above it, Now I'm down in it ~ Entropy - A Build thread.
            @Zakspeed_US

            Comment


              #7
              Have you changed the water pump out? It seems you've addressed everything else.

              May also be worth installing a VDO water temp gauge so you have a second (and analog) source of data.
              This was the first aftermarket gauge I installed in my E30 way back when it had the original M20 engine.

              It's easy to see when the thermostat opens, electric fan kicks on, etc:
              First test of my SPAL Electric fan, mounted in front of the radiator. Details in my Build Thread (Post 207): http://e30.panici.ca16" SPAL 301015171987 BMW E...





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              Last edited by Panici; 02-13-2022, 08:48 AM.

              Comment


                #8
                Update, still haven't solved the problem.

                I'm tired and caving, I haven't got the time to keep troubleshooting, I'm sending it to a shop.

                I have replaced the coolant reservoir, the cap, the rear cylinder head coolant gasket, and the heater core (and those o-rings there). The coolant still leaks from the reservoir and the rear of the engine.

                I also bought the Bavarian Autosport coolant bleeding funnel kit, the kind that you screw a cap onto the res and put a funnel on that cap, and fill it with water, so that the water is at a higher level to help get bubbles out. The kit has like 6 different caps but none *freaking* fit the E30 res. God dam it. You'd think a kit specifically for BMW's made by a BMW shop would have a cap for a fairly common BMW. But no, why would that make sense?
                But one of the caps kiiind of fit; correct diameter, but wrong thread pitch. I used that and bled it again after replacing those items. Seemed to be fine. Saw a little water from behind the head. Guess I didn't replace that correctly?

                I have pics,

                One my way to work after the temp stabilizes:

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                I get my exact temp reading from the ECU with an OBD2 scanner: (the dangling wire is my manual fan switch)

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                The new reservoir looks like the old one: covered in coolant.

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                I have also noticed some debris in the res, and when I've drained the radiator. Small specs of.. stuff.

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                The latest theory: The head gasket might be head and/or the head has warped. Could be leaking combustion/exhaust into the coolant. Just throwing out any last ideas here.

                Oh, and the pinging is getting worse. Pings bad only under load, for the first 15 minutes, then tame pinging for the rest of the journey.

                Currently building a badass coffee table
                Random stuff on insta @kevanromero

                Comment


                  #9
                  Forgot to mention, there's a leak from the rad sensor too:

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                  I'm ruling out that a stock fan will solve these problems, as I've switched on the fan manually after a couple minutes, after hitting 50*C. This helps prolong and reduce the issue slightly, but not enough.

                  I haven't changed the water pump. I've considered it could be a problem, not pushing enough water through, however, the car runs fine after a while, so the pump must be working. To a degree, at least.

                  Currently building a badass coffee table
                  Random stuff on insta @kevanromero

                  Comment


                    #10
                    For fun, here are the spark plugs. They look okay for only running about a thousand miles?

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                    Only 4 pics but the last two look the same.

                    My exhaust pipes are caked with soot.

                    I'd love to install a wideband in the future.

                    Currently building a badass coffee table
                    Random stuff on insta @kevanromero

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Interesting that your exhaust pipes are "caked with soot" but your plugs look really clean...I'd think that the plugs would be much darker if the car was running rich.


                      If you want to try one more test before taking it into a shop, I would try to test the cooling system for combustion gasses.



                      There is also a cheaper version at harbor freight that is endlessly out of stock.


                      Easy to use and would give you some more knowledge before going back to the shop that did the engine work.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        You could also put a pressure gauge on the coolant system. I found those combustion gas testers to be hit or miss if you have a slight leak.

                        Have you done leak down test? Or just run it with the cap off to see if it pukes air out?

                        Ive had head gaskets blow between cylinder intermittent feel like a miss.

                        I was up above it, Now I'm down in it ~ Entropy - A Build thread.
                        @Zakspeed_US

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by moatilliatta View Post
                          You could also put a pressure gauge on the coolant system. I found those combustion gas testers to be hit or miss if you have a slight leak.
                          Yes, agree. It is a better test method period because you can also pressurize and peek in the cylinders for signs of coolant. I just assume no one has that equipment/adapter on hand and it seems like this thing has a fairly large leak.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Cool, thanks for the ideas. I'll see if any of my friends who work in a shop have a leak down tester I could borrow. I'll try that before buying the coolant combustion kit. Silly question, but do you perform the leak down test on a cold or warm engine? I know you aren't supposed to take out plugs from a hot engine, but I guess I could warm it up a bit before testing.

                            You asked if I've run the car with the cap off; that is how I bled the system, revving the engine with the cap off, but no, not actually driving it. Bubbles almost always came out, up until about 20~ish minutes, thinking that the air pockets were purged.
                            But there either must be another hidden air pocket which is building excess pressure to push the coolant out from under the reservoir cap, or, the combustion is seeping into the coolant. Thanks, the leak down test should tell me something.

                            On a related note, I took a video of me accelerating onto a freeway, to show you the pinging/knocking sound. This is about 5 minutes after turning the car on, so it's still a bit cold. I run through a few gears at partial throttle to pick up speed, like normal. Then at 0:15, I just rev the engine with no load. No pinging.

                            Power delivery seems fine, but I can't be sure because I've never driving this engine when it worked properly. As a reminder, I have a code for a faulty vanos, so that's another consideration.



                            As the car warms up, after say 20 minutes, the pinging is minimal, much quieter.

                            I'll update later with results from a leak down test. Thanks guys!

                            Currently building a badass coffee table
                            Random stuff on insta @kevanromero

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I would do it at the temp your systems seem worse. Pulling plugs hot is fine, don't torque them hot.

                              Video - I bet its combustion blowing between two cylinders.

                              Do a vanos check when doing the headgasket.

                              I actually like doing my compression test super hot. That's where the engine is when pushing it. But for diagnosis , repeat the environment.
                              Last edited by moatilliatta; 02-24-2022, 03:48 PM.

                              I was up above it, Now I'm down in it ~ Entropy - A Build thread.
                              @Zakspeed_US

                              Comment

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