The Grand Vanos VS. Non-Vanos Thread

[MaxBell]

Next thread should be M50 vs. S50. Is it worth the trouble to go with just an M50?





Answer: NO

ooOOOoo...good question!

[mazur]

Next thread should be M50 vs. S50. Is it worth the trouble to go with just an M50?





Answer: NO

[DÌEGØ]

Sub'd!!! Because my next project might just include 24V of some sort

[e30polak]

No comparison here:

The Vanos motors are better in EVERY aspect, even price. For the $200-300 more you'll spend on an M50TU vs. a M50NV, it's well worth it. Why?

Vanos motors have greater power potential in NA form, with huge aftermarket support, as well as a lighter rotating assembly.

Also the argument that NV is better for boost is a bunch of BS. Sure you can run Megsquirt on a NV motor and tune it with more ease then trying to do the same with a Vanos motor, however it wont spool as quick or be nearly as potent as a Vanos motor with the same set-up. With so many tuners now that offering affordable tuning options for turbo Vanos motors, it's simply the better choice.

[Adrian_Visser]

VANOS and V-tec are similar only in that they are both methods of varying valve timing.

VANOS only advances or retards the opening point of the intake cam (on single VANOS).

V-tec varies timing, lift and duration of the cam. It activates a whole different lobe on the cam actually.

VANOS is kinda an old shoe compared to V-tec sorry to say, especially the on/off single VANOS in an m50tu.




Have you read this thread?

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=221301&highlight=NV+hot+cam

Wh33lhop spells it out pretty clearly in his post there.

I have never heard of running a shrick cam in the exhaust side, nor swapping an exhaust cam into the intake. The only "hot" cam setup I have heard of is running an second intake cam in the exhaust side.


FYI an s50 block is identical to an m50TU block and s50 bore is 86mm. If BMW was boring m50TU blocks to 86mm from the factory it must be safe no?

[MaxBell]

I think the big thing is that my M20 is so sluggish that rather then rebuilding and MAFing that, I'd rather have the more modern engine, a little extra hp and the better base to turbo.

[AnimalE30]

VANOS vs. Non-VANOS was settled a long time ago in ITS. The VANOS cars were beating the NV cars.

Anyway, an M50 swap is still a waste of time and money. You're making real compromises for not very much gain.

Putting an m50 in my car with only help from my brother was one of the best experiences of my life. Worth the money.

Also, if you're going turbo - a vanos will spool faster. That right there is worth the added complications of the unit.

[Wh33lhop]

yeah i know vanos is not vtec, i was joking. There are plenty of "upgrades with out swapping or turbos" for a m20, it just cost alot. A MAF kitted m20 with give any m50 a hard time allday long.

If anyone is in my area with a lightly modded M20 car, I welcome some friendly competition. I haven't had a huge number of run ins with M20 cars, but every M20 (and S14) car I've gone up against I've taken. I don't regard my car as fast by any means, but when I drive an M20 car it feels like a bit of a dog compared to my internally stock, 210k mile, non vanos, oil burning M50 breathing through a hot-air cone filter and stock M20 exhaust.

Again, I recognize that my sample set is pretty small and a lot of people do not know what they are doing so I am up for some challenges if anyone is in the area. :p

*shrug* The best thing about an M50 swap is that you have already done all the work to swap in an engine that delivers enough power to make it worth it. (Anither point against the NV engine.)

The only difference between an M50TU -> S50 swap and M50NV -> S50 swap is that you will need a different harness. Really if you know what you are doing the 24v swap is not much more difficult than just an engine pull/install. Just gotta frankenstein the right parts together, do simple wiring and figure out your exhaust. May need another radiator if you're an early model.

[Fusion]

M50 vanos or not are low maintenance well powered engines for what they cost.
If I blow mine, I'll just go look through ads and have it swapped within a week, for the price of a good dinner.
Both are also a good first step towards S5x, where you can't really afford to fuck up.

[e30trooper]

It's not as reliable as VTEC, but it's essentially the same idea.

I feel like swapping an M50 is only really a worth while endeavor if giving yourself Vanos. With Biesan Systems doing a $60 rebuild kit, there's not really any downsides. I just wish there were more performance upgrades that were not engine swaps or turbos. BMW does too good a job tuning their engines, we have nothing to do...

I was out with some friends who run swapped M50 E30s, and they all say the beefier non-vanos is a bunch of ancient mis-information. They've rebuilt them, not me, so I'm going of their word.

yeah i know vanos is not vtec, i was joking. There are plenty of "upgrades with out swapping or turbos" for a m20, it just cost alot. A MAF kitted m20 with give any m50 a hard time allday long. I had a m50tu once but it was in a 94 325is, the car pulled but not as hard as my chipped rebuilt m20.

[nrubenstein]

It's a waste of time and money putting a newer, more powerful, more efficient motor with more midrange (Vanos) that requires no timing belt replacements, no valve adjustments, in which a belt change takes 30 seconds, a water pump swap takes 10 minutes, the oil filter is easily accessible and not underneath exhaust manifolds into an E30?

Man, I fucked up. ;)

I know what you are going to say. Oil pump nut, low hanging oil pan, a little more weight over the front axle, smog, no oil cooler, theoretical 20hp increase, M20 oil filter housing can be flipped around. The point is, the swap is not without its merits, and you are getting built M20 power without even touching the internals of the motor. Throw in the tired state that a lot of M20s are in these days (mine put down 129whp with chip and injectors I think) and it does not seem to be such a horrible idea. Do not expect a fast car, but instead just a marginal increase.

*shrug* The best thing about an M50 swap is that you have already done all the work to swap in an engine that delivers enough power to make it worth it. (Anither point against the NV engine.)

Your points are valid, I just don't really see the point of putting all that work in without at *least* going to a cammed 2.8.

[trackjunkie21]

It's a waste of time and money putting a newer, more powerful, more efficient motor with more midrange (Vanos) that requires no timing belt replacements, no valve adjustments, in which a belt change takes 30 seconds, a water pump swap takes 10 minutes, the oil filter is easily accessible and not underneath exhaust manifolds into an E30?

Man, I fucked up. ;)

I know what you are going to say. Oil pump nut, low hanging oil pan, a little more weight over the front axle, smog, no oil cooler, theoretical 20hp increase, M20 oil filter housing can be flipped around. The point is, the swap is not without its merits, and you are getting built M20 power without even touching the internals of the motor. Throw in the tired state that a lot of M20s are in these days (mine put down 129whp with chip and injectors I think) and it does not seem to be such a horrible idea. Do not expect a fast car, but instead just a marginal increase.

[MaksV]

I just put in a NV engine in my 325i. Got to finally put itthrough its paces today (finally got alignment done)

Pulls just as hard as my friends s50 sedan. The chirp in 3rd actual scared me a bit. It is smoother than my old M20, more powerful, and actually breathes over 6250.

I am glad I did the swap, as far as NV vs V, I got my engine for 250 bucks, and i plan on boosting it later.

[Wh33lhop]

VANOS vs. Non-VANOS was settled a long time ago in ITS. The VANOS cars were beating the NV cars.

Anyway, an M50 swap is still a waste of time and money. You're making real compromises for not very much gain.

It's a waste of time and money putting a newer, more powerful, more efficient motor with more midrange (Vanos) that requires no timing belt replacements, no valve adjustments, in which a belt change takes 30 seconds, a water pump swap takes 10 minutes, the oil filter is easily accessible and not underneath exhaust manifolds into an E30?

Man, I fucked up. ;)

I know what you are going to say. Oil pump nut, low hanging oil pan, a little more weight over the front axle, smog, no oil cooler, theoretical 20hp increase, M20 oil filter housing can be flipped around. The point is, the swap is not without its merits, and you are getting built M20 power without even touching the internals of the motor. Throw in the tired state that a lot of M20s are in these days (mine put down 129whp with chip and injectors I think) and it does not seem to be such a horrible idea. Do not expect a fast car, but instead just a marginal increase.

[nrubenstein]

VANOS vs. Non-VANOS was settled a long time ago in ITS. The VANOS cars were beating the NV cars.

Anyway, an M50 swap is still a waste of time and money. You're making real compromises for not very much gain.