Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

24V AWD Swap Knowledge Base

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    I want people to contribute... that way we can figure things out.

    Having multiple build threads means that it's hard to keep track of where all the good ideas are. I started this thread to try to keep everything in one place.

    I had spent exactly zero time thinking about axles in a serious way. At the worst, I can have custom shafts made with the E53 inner spline on one end and the E30 outer spline on the other end.

    However, finding a bolt-together axle setup would definitely be more desirable.

    One thing I just realized. Since both 6 and 8 cylinder E53 pans put the diff in the same place, a 6 cylinder E53 swap would have to do the same thing with the steering rack as I'm having to do with my 8 cylinder swap... There will be some interference between the stock rack and the E53 diff.

    The major question of fitment for the 8 cylinder is whether the rear face of the left head and the front face of the E53 sump will clear the brake booster location on the firewall and the suspension crossmember, respectively.

    The S62 does not have the rear coolant crossover that the M60/M62 have, so it can--and due to the oil pan MUST--sit back further in the body than a BMW V8 would in a RWD E30. This means that there will likely have to be work done to the trans tunnel to clear the dual starter bulges on the M62 bellhousing.

    However, the passenger side of the E30 firewall is further back than the driver's side. I think there will end up being adequate room for a 24V engine, even though the 8 will be extremely tight.

    Comment


      #17
      Axles...

      Originally posted by The Dark Side of Will View Post

      I had spent exactly zero time thinking about axles in a serious way. At the worst, I can have custom shafts made with the E53 inner spline on one end and the E30 outer spline on the other end.
      It seems to me just by looking the E46 spindles are close to E30, advantage I see is 5 bolt conversion, easier shock replacement, easy big brake options. and the splines are held in place with cir-clips that would be investigated as to which can be interchanged. Who knows maybe outer tie rods may work, I have seen adjustable ones being sold.

      My rear trailing arms are from regular E30 and NOT IX, so rear tires now sit inside the wheel well more, reason I did this was so that I have room to put some wider rims in the back and have a true staggered set up.

      Just ideas for you. Happy brain storming...

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by sassen View Post
        It seems to me just by looking the E46 spindles are close to E30, advantage I see is 5 bolt conversion, easier shock replacement, easy big brake options. and the splines are held in place with cir-clips that would be investigated as to which can be interchanged. Who knows maybe outer tie rods may work, I have seen adjustable ones being sold.

        My rear trailing arms are from regular E30 and NOT IX, so rear tires now sit inside the wheel well more, reason I did this was so that I have room to put some wider rims in the back and have a true staggered set up.

        Just ideas for you. Happy brain storming...

        well, maybe.....however, the axles look to me like the e46 outer end. i have already purchased e46 axles, hubs, and spindles(carriers). the outer portion of the axle is completely different than the e30's. the splined portion of the e46 is WAY larger and will never come close to fitting in the e30 hole. since the x5 came out after the e46, i can't imagine bmw stepping back to the old smaller style.

        so....in a stubborn attempt to make them work anyway, i purchased a pair of e46 spindles/hubs which were a huge waste of money. i tried all sorts of combinations of parts. they simply don't work. there is nothing about the geometry that will come close to working on an e30. seriously...nothing.

        with this said, i can't say e53 parts won't work because i have not had them in my hands to make a comparison. however, i can say that they look 90% similiar to e46. the only difference i can see is that the center portion of the axle is much shorter and the inner portion of the right axle is much longer.
        Last edited by flyboyx; 01-19-2014, 06:10 PM.
        sigpic
        Gigitty Gigitty!!!!

        88 cabrio becoming alpina b6 3.5s transplanted s62
        92 Mtech 2 cabrio alpinweiss 770 code
        88 325ix coupe manual lachsilber/cardinal
        88 325ix coupe manual diamondschwartz/natur
        87 e30 m3 for parts lachsilber/cardinal(serial number 7)
        12 135i M sport cabrio grey/black

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by flyboyx View Post
          well, maybe.....however, the axles look to me like the e46 outer end. i have already purchased e46 axles, hubs, and spindles(carriers). the outer portion of the axle is completely different than the e30's. the splined portion of the e46 is WAY larger and will never come close to fitting in the e30 hole. since the x5 came out after the e46, i can't imagine bmw stepping back to the old smaller style.

          so....in a stubborn attempt to make them work anyway, i purchased a pair of e46 spindles/hubs which were a huge waste of money. i tried all sorts of combinations of parts. they simply don't work. there is nothing about the geometry that will come close to working on an e30. seriously...nothing.

          with this said, i can't say e53 parts won't work because i have not had them in my hands to make a comparison. however, i can say that they look 90% similiar to e46. the only difference i can see is that the center portion of the axle is much shorter and the inner portion of the right axle is much longer.
          You know, this saves me like a million dollars worth of headaches:crazy: in a futile attempt. I think this good to know...
          Thanks for sharing....

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by flyboyx View Post
            well, maybe.....however, the axles look to me like the e46 outer end. i have already purchased e46 axles, hubs, and spindles(carriers). the outer portion of the axle is completely different than the e30's. the splined portion of the e46 is WAY larger and will never come close to fitting in the e30 hole. since the x5 came out after the e46, i can't imagine bmw stepping back to the old smaller style.

            so....in a stubborn attempt to make them work anyway, i purchased a pair of e46 spindles/hubs which were a huge waste of money. i tried all sorts of combinations of parts. they simply don't work. there is nothing about the geometry that will come close to working on an e30. seriously...nothing.

            with this said, i can't say e53 parts won't work because i have not had them in my hands to make a comparison. however, i can say that they look 90% similiar to e46. the only difference i can see is that the center portion of the axle is much shorter and the inner portion of the right axle is much longer.
            axles may well be a problem as you say, but no matter which one you use, the oil pan isn't perfect.

            on both the E34 and E53 pans, the diff hits the steering rack. No matter what you will have to deal with that, and on the E34 I don't think it's even possible to move the engine all the way forward to where the M20 was located.

            The E53 axle centerline can't be that far off from the E34, because Will measured the distance from the bellhousing face to the front of the sump and it's actually shorter than the E34. so if the E34 is 3/4" forward, and the E53 is 1/2" rearward, it would seem like a wash to me. the CV shaft isn't going to care about that.

            what it would come down to is making a CV shaft that works. I really don't care about 5 lug, and would never consider it myself. The best part of the E34 setup is definitely the CV shafts as they pretty much bolt right up. the oil pan could fit better though.

            With the E46 steering rack I think you could mount the E53 based swap at least 1/2" further forward than the E34 pan, basically in the M20's location. But that is a whole different can of worms..
            Build thread

            Bimmerlabs

            Comment


              #21
              From my thread on E30Tech:

              E30 pan:
              Bellhousing face to axle centerline: 10 1/8"
              Bellhousing face to front of sump: 14"

              E53 V8 pan:
              BH face to axle CL: 10 3/4"
              BH face to front of sump: 14 5/8"

              E53 I6 pan:
              BH to axle CL: 11 1/4
              BH to sump: 15

              In any case, both of the E53 pans will push the engine somewhat further back than the M20 pan.
              Because of the contouring of the E30 firewall and the fact that the right side of the firewall is further back in the car than the left side where the brake booster mounts, I think there will be plenty of clearance for the 24V engine.

              I think someone posted the same dimensions for the E34 pan, but I didn't find them skimming my other thread.
              Last edited by The Dark Side of Will; 01-20-2014, 07:58 AM.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Ether-D View Post
                This is probably the wrong place, but I-Love-AMC Eagles. For the under informed, Google AMC Eagle SX/4. I will own another one. So kickass.

                On another note, great set of information here. Good job!
                Oops... Sorry I didn't see this when you first posted it.

                Yeah, I'm collecting parts for an Eagle 4.0 HO EFI swap also. I have the 4.0 engine and a 3.54 disco axle from a 4 cylinder Eagle. As you can see, I've swapped the 258 oil pan and pickup onto the 4.0 and modded 2 of the 3 brackets to work with the 4.0 block. I'm still working on the "strap" that goes from the block to the diff snout so that it bolts to the 4.0 block AND clears the 4.0 exhaust manifold.

                I also have an NV3550 five speed trans, NP229 T-case and *NON* C-clip 3.54 Dana 44 rear axle modded for Eagle shock brackets and with Grand Cherokee disk brake caliper brackets modded to fit the early style axle tube end flanges.

                Thread: http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=22813.0

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by sassen View Post
                  You know, this saves me like a million dollars worth of headaches:crazy: in a futile attempt. I think this good to know...
                  Thanks for sharing....
                  Hehe... Yeah, there's a lot of thinking and experimentation that's already been done. Capturing it is part of the point of starting this thread.

                  I don't have an E53 bearing block, or I'd already have some of these numbers, buuut...

                  Things I think we'll need to know to get the axles figured out:

                  -Distance from left diff axle seal to right axle seal on bearing block
                  -Diameter and spline count for axle splines into diff (Can a RWD 86mm output flange from a 4 cylinder car with 168mm diff be used on the driver's side?)
                  -Diameter and spline count for shafts where they go into the CV joints, inner and outer
                  -Diameter and spline count at the hub end of the outer CV's for E30 and each likely replacement application

                  The compressed lengths of the stock axle assemblies should give us a very good planning dimension for the compressed lengths of the modded axle assemblies. The combined compressed lengths of both units + the diameter of the diff cross pin is very close to the hub-to-hub width of the body, for example.

                  RealOEM says that E53 3.0 and 4.4 use the same axles but different bearing blocks.
                  Last edited by The Dark Side of Will; 01-20-2014, 01:16 PM.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by The Dark Side of Will View Post
                    From my thread on E30Tech:

                    E30 pan:
                    Bellhousing face to axle centerline: 10 1/8"
                    Bellhousing face to front of sump: 14"

                    E53 V8 pan:
                    BH face to axle CL: 10 3/4"
                    BH face to front of sump: 14 5/8"

                    E53 I6 pan:
                    BH to axle CL: 11 1/4
                    BH to sump: 15

                    In any case, both of the E53 pans will push the engine somewhat further back than the M20 pan.
                    Because of the contouring of the E30 firewall and the fact that the right side of the firewall is further back in the car than the left side where the brake booster mounts, I think there will be plenty of clearance for the 24V engine.

                    I think someone posted the same dimensions for the E34 pan, but I didn't find them skimming my other thread.

                    E34 ix:

                    Originally posted by nando View Post
                    BH to CL of axle:
                    ~11 3/8"
                    BH to front of sump:
                    15 1/4"
                    E30 325ix M50 turbo 7 spd DCT 4wd 840awhp @ 31 psi.
                    E30 M50 6 spd 764whp @ 24psi.
                    E30 M20 6 spd 675whp.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      i am sitting in a hotel in guadalajara, mx today so i can't go out and take pix of the parts i have, but i did manage to go through my hard drive on my laptop and i found most of the pix i had posted on my e30tech thread. will, if you want to move any of these up to the front of this thread to make it more cohesive, you certainly have my permission to do so.

                      this first one is a comparison of an e30 outer axle end to e46. i think it pretty clearly illustrates what i was talking about above. judging by ebay photos, i would say the the e53 axle looks like the one on the left.



                      this is a comparison of the e46 right side inner axle to the e34's. the e34 is the short one.



                      this one is a shot of the e30 (left) and e34 outer axle joint taken apart. as you can see, the spline pattern is different so there is no interchanging without some serious machinist work. not pictured, but i also completely took apart the e46 axle and the connection on both ends is much different than either of the two pictured. you won't be getting lucky there so don't waste your time and money trying it. i already did and it was a waste.



                      these are some shots of the e34 pan sitting in one of my parts ix's. this is pretty close to where it would/needs to sit when the engine is mounted in the car. at the time these pix were taken, i hadn't thought of mounting the diff to see if there would be interference with the steering rack.







                      these next ones are some measurements i took. the comparisons are posted in the e30tech thread. unfortunately, the image host i was using shit the bed and there are no pix there anymore.







                      e34 rwd motor mounts


                      i don't know if this is any help, but i took a picture of the bearing carrier from e30 and e34. i can't remember which is which by looking at the pic, but i am pretty sure the e30's is on the left.





                      this is what an e46 carrier looks like hanging off an e30 chassis. this was a fucked up mess! and no, you cannot take the 5 lug hub out of the e46 carrier and mount it in an e30ix carrier. the diameter where it goes into the bearing is too large.



                      Last edited by flyboyx; 01-21-2014, 07:38 AM.
                      sigpic
                      Gigitty Gigitty!!!!

                      88 cabrio becoming alpina b6 3.5s transplanted s62
                      92 Mtech 2 cabrio alpinweiss 770 code
                      88 325ix coupe manual lachsilber/cardinal
                      88 325ix coupe manual diamondschwartz/natur
                      87 e30 m3 for parts lachsilber/cardinal(serial number 7)
                      12 135i M sport cabrio grey/black

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by flyboyx View Post
                        these are some shots of the e34 pan sitting in one of my parts ix's. this is pretty close to where it would/needs to sit when the engine is mounted in the car. at the time these pix were taken, i hadn't thought of mounting the diff to see if there would be interference with the steering rack.
                        It's too far back, by about 1.5" - going by Will's measurement of the E30 and E53 pans. even if you push the pan all the way up until it hits the steering rack, it's still too far back in relation to the stock M20 orientation. and you can't push it that far forward anyway because of the differential issue..

                        From what Will posted, the E53 pan is closer to the E30's centerline geometry than the E34 and will be easier to fit in the correct spot (to use the Getrag 260, stock trans mounts, shifter, etc). The bigger hurdle seems to be CV shafts in that case. you could probably do it using E53 inners and either E34 or E30 outters, but the shaft itself would have to be modified or custom..
                        Build thread

                        Bimmerlabs

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by nando View Post

                          From what Will posted, the E53 pan is closer to the E30's centerline geometry than the E34 and will be easier to fit in the correct spot (to use the Getrag 260, stock trans mounts, shifter, etc).
                          yes, i agree. the pan is probably a little too far back in the pix. it can't move 1.5 inches forward or the front axles will hit the back of the front sub frame. maybe 3/4" would clear. i don't think any more would work.

                          when you say centerline, it sounds like you are talking the centerline of the front axle? judging by the numbers posted, it appears to be only 1/4"ish difference between e34 and e53 i6 pan.

                          for me personally, i think i would rather deal with that small amount than make a custom jointed front driveshaft and custom front axles.

                          i know you are aware of this, but trans mounts and shifter position are small potatoes compared to the rest of the obstacles.

                          if it comes down to re fabricating the firewall a little bit to make this work, i'm personally not going to let that stand in my way of a successful swap. i will figure out a way to do it so it looks factory instead of taking a bfh and beating the hell out of it.
                          Last edited by flyboyx; 01-22-2014, 02:42 AM.
                          sigpic
                          Gigitty Gigitty!!!!

                          88 cabrio becoming alpina b6 3.5s transplanted s62
                          92 Mtech 2 cabrio alpinweiss 770 code
                          88 325ix coupe manual lachsilber/cardinal
                          88 325ix coupe manual diamondschwartz/natur
                          87 e30 m3 for parts lachsilber/cardinal(serial number 7)
                          12 135i M sport cabrio grey/black

                          Comment


                            #28
                            certainly firewall fabrication is an option, but I'm never going to do that personally. Don't have the time or energy for that. Also don't want to do permanent mods to the car.

                            making a swap that works with stock shifters and trans mounts is just that many fewer things to have to engineer, so to me, it's worth the extra effort of figuring out the front drivetrain bits since nothing really fits 100% perfect anyway. That's always been my goal. Ironic how the transmission/transfercase is the easiest part, huh?

                            honestly, if they didn't cost $9,000 I'd be looking for an S65 instead since they're so much lighter and the V8 drivetrain seems to fit better. :p
                            Build thread

                            Bimmerlabs

                            Comment


                              #29
                              It looks like you can move back the M20 around 2cm with removed insulation, but the M5X head might be a little longer? And 2cm might not be enough anyway :P
                              E30 325ix M50 turbo 7 spd DCT 4wd 840awhp @ 31 psi.
                              E30 M50 6 spd 764whp @ 24psi.
                              E30 M20 6 spd 675whp.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Nisse Järnet View Post
                                It looks like you can move back the M20 around 2cm with removed insulation, but the M5X head might be a little longer? And 2cm might not be enough anyway :P
                                it probably is pretty close by my calculation. according to the measurements above, an e34 pan places the axle center line 1 1/4" forward of the e30 pan. this is perhaps a little over 30 cm. i think it appears that the dimension may be split-around half forward/half back. the question then: will an e46 rack clear the front diff?
                                sigpic
                                Gigitty Gigitty!!!!

                                88 cabrio becoming alpina b6 3.5s transplanted s62
                                92 Mtech 2 cabrio alpinweiss 770 code
                                88 325ix coupe manual lachsilber/cardinal
                                88 325ix coupe manual diamondschwartz/natur
                                87 e30 m3 for parts lachsilber/cardinal(serial number 7)
                                12 135i M sport cabrio grey/black

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X