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    Megasquirt COP conversion

    Seriously need some help/guidance on how to convert my megasquirt setup to successfully run Coil on plug, deleting my distributor and im not getting the answers I need, im very new to tuning, and extremely new to the hardware changes.. all of this seems overwhelming but learning a lot as I go.


    what im hoping to achieve is running full sequential ignition and injection.
    I want my tuners to be able to have full flexibility on giving me the best possible tune I can have.


    ill give alittle background on the cars hardware:
    m20b25ix swapped to 2.7 SETA pistons crank rods
    30# injectors on stock fpr, 255lph pump
    WhoDWho PnP megasquirt setup
    wired electronic boost control valve
    precision 5558 with tial external wastegate
    deleted afm using GM IAT mounted in throttle body
    deleted ICV (plugged ports)
    variable TPS installed from m5x


    I cant reach keith (whodwho) for any further information, he was helpful a year ago when I first purchased and helped me set up the wideband and EBC but now he has gone fully ghost.


    as for installing the COP heres where im at thus far. first of all am I really going to need full sequential ignition? to me, wasted spark just seems like a minor upgrade, only really getting halfway to where it should be. id rather have full control of things in the event of any issues. what is the difference in full vs. semi sequential injection?


    to my understanding im going to need to solder in some drivers to the board or something? or is my current configuration already equipped with what I need? basically need to know what my next move is and what else I need to purchase and how to install\configure it.


    Ive already purchased individual coils (D585 LS1 coils) with connector pins precrimped with wiring leads, and spark plug wires\boots but I really don't know what the hell im wiring them into.


    my second dilemma is the full sequential injection issue.. I don't even know where to begin with that. ive been reading and reading and reading but, theres so much cross information about hardware changes between so many different versions and boards, I really don't even know where the hell to begin getting the answers I need, or again if its even something I need, or even already have!


    please guys, slap some sense into me. im a smart guy really.. I just don't have anybody here willing to give me the short simple answers I need for even the basics.




    another thing I left off with keith was asking how to know ive properly installed my electronic boost control configuration.. is there a means to be able to test its functioning properly without having to run the motor? (in the middle of upgrading an o-ringed headgasket right now so im trying to get all these hardware configurations taken care of and fully knowledge myself before I go, run this thing, only to have it blow up on me. I really need to get this right, and get it to a tuner on a dyno and not have them confused as to what the hells been installed wrong.

    #2
    A few things...this project is probably way more than you are expecting.

    Idle
    What are you controlling the idle with? Unless this is an emissions-exempt racecar, simply cracking the throttle is not a good way to go. The stock ICV is not great, but it does work.

    Fuel
    There is limited benefit to going full sequential. Conceptually it seems vastly superior to the stock semi-sequential arrangement since, with sequential, you can inject fuel nicely during each cylinder's intake stroke, versus the stock setup where 2 of the 3 injectors firing each time are doing it onto closed intake valves. In practice, obviously the M20 ran just fine this way and it is largely a non-issue. Beyond that, the stock harness only has 2 control lines for injectors, and it fires them in sets (1+3+5 fire together, 2+4+6 fire together). To actually run a sequential configuration, you will need to remove the stock injector wiring and add in 6 control lines. Beyond that, you will need to add the proper terminals to install them into the Motronic connector, and then do internal mods to the MSPNP to actually have them connected to anything (and you may have to add power transistors and stuff if they are not there already). Also, sequential injection requires a cam position sensor (not sure of the M20 ever came with one).

    Ignition
    Same deal as the fuel. MAJOR wire harness mods are needed to go from the existing single coil control line to 6. MSPNP mods are also likely needed. I am not even sire if the logic level outputs from the MSPNP can drive the LSx coils, so the output transistors might need beefing up (yes, even logic level coils can sometimes require 100-200mA, which is too much for regular MS outputs). You would also need to do all of the required high current wiring for the coils, which I believe draw more current than the stock M20 coil. Also, COP ignition requires a cam position sensor (not sure of the M20 ever came with one).



    The short answer here is do not do any of this stuff, yet. Get the car running with the MSPNP using the stock sensors, injectors and ignition. If you can't get it running before hacking up the harness and MSPNP, there is almost zero hope of achieving this after.

    From what you describe in terms of your knowledge level of this system and how it all works to make an engine run, you need to do a TON of reading. Asking for all the answers on here will not get you where you need to be because you need to understand everything to ensure that the changes you make work. The best resource to start with is the documentation for the MSPNP. Read ALL of it, as many times as you need to. It gives a decent basic overview of the how-to's.
    https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...-bmw-e30-325i/ (go to the Documentation tab)

    Next, you should read the MS3Pro manual in its entirety. Yes, it is somewhat different hardware, but a LOT of the fundamentals are the same.
    https://www.ampefi.com/wp-content/up...Gen_manual.pdf

    An older resource, of which most of the info may be covered in the above links, is here:
    http://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms2manuals/

    The level of knowledge you need to be at before changing ANYTHING: be able to name every sensor and control on the engine, its principle of operation and what signals are connected to it from the top of your head. These are very simple engines as far as electronic management systems are concerned, so it is really a fairly low bar.

    On the one hand, I can understand if this reply comes off as discouraging. There is a lot to unwrap, and I am not going to provide all of the answers (I do not even own an M20 car, but I have spent the better part of the last decade hacking ECUs and closely following Megasquirt development). Ultimately you are fully capable of learning what you need to, and it is not going to be fast or easy, but it will be worth it if you put in the time and effort. Reading the linked documentation is mandatory to get there though.

    Comment


      #3
      BC is boost control. One wire there and the other to either ground OR 12v - I can't remember, but at least it's not hard to swap over if one isn't working.

      Polarity doesn't matter.

      Same with Launch Control if you want to throw that in the mix.
      That one I know needs a 12v input with a momentary switch inline.

      Make an inline fuse for both.


      When you purchased your MS from Keith, he would of asked you if you wanted the drivers for COP/Wasted spark or whatever for a small charge.
      Sorry I can't help more.




      bmwman91 to the rescueeee

      1991 325iS turbo

      Comment


        #4
        Plenty of people have great success using semi sequential fuel(2 groups of 3 injectors). I see no good reason to not run this in your case.

        I do not like distributors because of the inherent downsides of the spark jumping the gap between the rotor and cap, but even then plenty of people have great success running high powered things on the distributor.

        What i am doing on my car (MS) is running 2 injector outputs (2 groups of 3 as per oem), and my MS has been modded to have 3 ingnition outputs and thus i will run a wasted spark coil on plug system. Essentially my plan is (eventually..) buy 6 coils, wire them in wasted spark configuration (3 groups of 2). and do away with the distributor all together. Nothing really monumental here, very well documented on the internet. I made a complete custom loom (as its going into an Ljet car) so crazy wiring is not a problem for me.

        Advantages of this setup (that i see) is that it will run on the oem 60-2 wheel (you need an additional cam sensor to run full sequential in addition to the 60-2 wheel). Simpler wiring and it can be done with MS.

        I believe you need an MS3-pro to have enough outputs to run full sequential on a 6clr (6 inj and 6 spark). And on such an old engine i don't think you will see much benefit to full sequential anyway. Fuel economy does not seem like a priority given you are adding a turbo!

        With a bit of tinkering you could do the same as me for a distributor less wasted spark and semi sequential injection setup.

        If you have a PNP though...just plug it in and start tuning it on the distributor. once you reach the limits of the distributor system start converting it to your individual coils.

        Comment


          #5
          this is exactly the information I was looking for, just needed a few short answers to make sense of all the things ive been reading upon.. in no way was I going to attempt any hardware changes to ms or harness without knowing with pure confidence what I was going to do.


          Originally posted by bmwman91 View Post
          A few things...this project is probably way more than you are expecting.

          Idle
          What are you controlling the idle with? Unless this is an emissions-exempt racecar, simply cracking the throttle is not a good way to go. The stock ICV is not great, but it does work.

          Fuel
          There is limited benefit to going full sequential. Conceptually it seems vastly superior to the stock semi-sequential arrangement since, with sequential, you can inject fuel nicely during each cylinder's intake stroke, versus the stock setup where 2 of the 3 injectors firing each time are doing it onto closed intake valves. In practice, obviously the M20 ran just fine this way and it is largely a non-issue. Beyond that, the stock harness only has 2 control lines for injectors, and it fires them in sets (1+3+5 fire together, 2+4+6 fire together). To actually run a sequential configuration, you will need to remove the stock injector wiring and add in 6 control lines. Beyond that, you will need to add the proper terminals to install them into the Motronic connector, and then do internal mods to the MSPNP to actually have them connected to anything (and you may have to add power transistors and stuff if they are not there already). Also, sequential injection requires a cam position sensor (not sure of the M20 ever came with one).

          Ignition
          Same deal as the fuel. MAJOR wire harness mods are needed to go from the existing single coil control line to 6. MSPNP mods are also likely needed. I am not even sire if the logic level outputs from the MSPNP can drive the LSx coils, so the output transistors might need beefing up (yes, even logic level coils can sometimes require 100-200mA, which is too much for regular MS outputs). You would also need to do all of the required high current wiring for the coils, which I believe draw more current than the stock M20 coil. Also, COP ignition requires a cam position sensor (not sure of the M20 ever came with one).



          The short answer here is do not do any of this stuff, yet. Get the car running with the MSPNP using the stock sensors, injectors and ignition. If you can't get it running before hacking up the harness and MSPNP, there is almost zero hope of achieving this after.

          From what you describe in terms of your knowledge level of this system and how it all works to make an engine run, you need to do a TON of reading. Asking for all the answers on here will not get you where you need to be because you need to understand everything to ensure that the changes you make work. The best resource to start with is the documentation for the MSPNP. Read ALL of it, as many times as you need to. It gives a decent basic overview of the how-to's.
          https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...-bmw-e30-325i/ (go to the Documentation tab)

          Next, you should read the MS3Pro manual in its entirety. Yes, it is somewhat different hardware, but a LOT of the fundamentals are the same.
          https://www.ampefi.com/wp-content/up...Gen_manual.pdf

          An older resource, of which most of the info may be covered in the above links, is here:
          http://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms2manuals/

          The level of knowledge you need to be at before changing ANYTHING: be able to name every sensor and control on the engine, its principle of operation and what signals are connected to it from the top of your head. These are very simple engines as far as electronic management systems are concerned, so it is really a fairly low bar.

          On the one hand, I can understand if this reply comes off as discouraging. There is a lot to unwrap, and I am not going to provide all of the answers (I do not even own an M20 car, but I have spent the better part of the last decade hacking ECUs and closely following Megasquirt development). Ultimately you are fully capable of learning what you need to, and it is not going to be fast or easy, but it will be worth it if you put in the time and effort. Reading the linked documentation is mandatory to get there though.

          Comment


            #6
            thank you, it was +12v on the ebc, ive sorted that and run an inline fuse already.


            Originally posted by ak- View Post
            BC is boost control. One wire there and the other to either ground OR 12v - I can't remember, but at least it's not hard to swap over if one isn't working.

            Polarity doesn't matter.

            Same with Launch Control if you want to throw that in the mix.
            That one I know needs a 12v input with a momentary switch inline.

            Make an inline fuse for both.


            When you purchased your MS from Keith, he would of asked you if you wanted the drivers for COP/Wasted spark or whatever for a small charge.
            Sorry I can't help more.




            bmwman91 to the rescueeee

            Comment


              #7
              perfect. this was a major help. I appreciate your input and have been doing exactly that. ill likely be running a setup with 3 individual dual coil drivers similar to what KAMOTORS appears to be running. id like to find exactly what I need to purchase (with quantities) so I have everything on hand already once I feel completely confident in doing the conversion. I seem to have a good grasp on things as it is.. but im going to read a whole lot more to see what benefits and gains are to be had going with pencil style, vs. wasted spark.


              Originally posted by e30davie View Post
              Plenty of people have great success using semi sequential fuel(2 groups of 3 injectors). I see no good reason to not run this in your case.

              I do not like distributors because of the inherent downsides of the spark jumping the gap between the rotor and cap, but even then plenty of people have great success running high powered things on the distributor.

              What i am doing on my car (MS) is running 2 injector outputs (2 groups of 3 as per oem), and my MS has been modded to have 3 ingnition outputs and thus i will run a wasted spark coil on plug system. Essentially my plan is (eventually..) buy 6 coils, wire them in wasted spark configuration (3 groups of 2). and do away with the distributor all together. Nothing really monumental here, very well documented on the internet. I made a complete custom loom (as its going into an Ljet car) so crazy wiring is not a problem for me.

              Advantages of this setup (that i see) is that it will run on the oem 60-2 wheel (you need an additional cam sensor to run full sequential in addition to the 60-2 wheel). Simpler wiring and it can be done with MS.

              I believe you need an MS3-pro to have enough outputs to run full sequential on a 6clr (6 inj and 6 spark). And on such an old engine i don't think you will see much benefit to full sequential anyway. Fuel economy does not seem like a priority given you are adding a turbo!

              With a bit of tinkering you could do the same as me for a distributor less wasted spark and semi sequential injection setup.

              If you have a PNP though...just plug it in and start tuning it on the distributor. once you reach the limits of the distributor system start converting it to your individual coils.

              Comment


                #8
                Wasted Spark

                I would definitely recommend starting with a simple wasted spark ignition setup with a coil pack before going to full coil-on-plug. Modern OEMs like COP for two main reasons: 1 it gets rid of the HT spark plug wires in the engine bay and thus simpler packaging and 2 it reduces AM radio interference. But since your engine bay was originally designed to accommodate plug wires and I seriously doubt that you listen to very much AM radio, then there really aren't any benefits of sequential COP. Get the stock single coil ignition working first, and then move up to wasted spark, and don't bother going beyond that to sequential. For wasted spark, DIYAutotune sells this nice Quadspark box to get 4 coil channels from with MS2/Extra or Microsquirt:
                https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...nition-module/
                Note: You certainly CAN run wasted spark on 6 individual COP coils, but in my opinion there's no point unless you want to; plus it's more expensive.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Your tuner is going to tune your motor as a whole also. So having independent control over each cylinder isn't much of a advantage unless you have egr or afr readings on each cylinder so your tuner has a way to adjust each cylinder as needed. And that's only done when your pushing the motor to the limits of knock and you need every bit of power you can get.

                  Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
                  Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

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                  Comment

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