From knowing nothing to having a Thunderbird supercharger on an m20b27i

[TheTacoMan]

I am also interested in water/methanol injection, but I've always read these systems supply the mixture according to PSI.

Yes, there are ways to I believe to have variable meth injection I personally havent looked into it. The way mine is setup right now is very simple, its a solenoid that reads boost once it sees 7psi it turns on the pump which in tern injects the meth at a constant rate.

[Ether-D]

I don't know if they can use the injector signals, that would be one for Whodwho.

What I've noticed about my superchargers' boost is that it's not exactly linear between 2000rpm and 6000rpm. Mine goes from vac to boost as soon as I press the pedal more than 1/4 of the way. But at low rpm (1500-2000) it's at about 3-4psi and around 3000-4000rpm it hits it's sweet spot and gets to about 6-7psi depending on what gear I'm in. Ill try to get a video.

[Scywrath]

I am also interested in water/methanol injection, but I've always read these systems supply the mixture according to PSI. If I have (about) the same amount of boost at 2000 than at 6000, it seems unlikely that I will have appropriate amount of meth injected all the time. Can these systems use injector pulse signals or any other input to determine the required flow?

[kamotors]

methanol is essentially like race gas As far as tuning, You'll need to subtract fuel fromm your table or it will be very rich,wastefull and not make decent power.


"DevilsOwn© Benefits Include:

Increased horsepower safely by 10-15%.
Lowered air temperatures by 50-200+ degrees.
Decreased cylinder temperatures up to 300 degrees.
Reduced effects of heat soak in warmer climates.
Allowable running of more boost and timing safely.
Reduced carbon and assistance maintaining a clean combustion chamber.
Increased octane at user programmable boost levels.

The main function of water methanol injection is to prevent detonation. Detonation is produced by high temperatures and pressure developed in the combustion chamber. Water has a high latent heat content, which makes it extremely effective at preventing the onset of detonation. In addition, water injection reduces the production of NOx (oxides of nitrogen). Methanol, with its 116 octane and high flash point, additionally reduces the chances of detonation. While water is not combustible, it has a greater capacity to cool the intake air temps more than methanol alone. This is why we recommend a 50/50 mixture being misted into your boosted engine. Methanol effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, allowing performance gains when used in supercharged and turbocharged applications. How’s that for a science lesson? You hook it up, and you will see what facts and figures cannot describe adequately: a huge increases in your vehicle’s performance! You can verify the change because you know your vehicle better than anyone else. You won’t be disappointed, you’ll be excited about your performance increases!"

[TheTacoMan]

Good point. So why meth blend over straight water? I know it acts as supplemental fuel, but why would I need more fuel? Shouldn't the tune take care of fueling?

One of the effects of the water when it is atomized is the ability to absorb heat, think of the bottle of water that have a fan for hot summer days, even though the water is a room temperature it feels cold. Methanol raises the the octane of the fuel, I forget by how much but Kamotors might know. Where you gain power is the colder air charge as well as a tune associated with the higher octane.

[Ether-D]

Good point. So why meth blend over straight water? I know it acts as supplemental fuel, but why would I need more fuel? Shouldn't the tune take care of fueling?

[TheTacoMan]

Meth is good stuff, the only down side is if your pump breaks and you dont realize it.
Doit.

[Ether-D]

^Werd!

Do you have some more photos of your intake plumbing?

Sure man, what exactly do you want pics of? I'll put them up.

[kamotors]

yes, meth is the best

[Ether-D]

This post goes out to Tacoman. I've been reading up on your methanol injection ideas. So are they just like, a miracle or something? Because there seems to be no downside. I believe they are a miracle. You just rig up a spray nozzle to spray whenever it sees a certain psi.

Great info...

http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alcohol-injection-installation-instructions.html

[Q5Quint]

Now I am thinking about plumbing for us non-manifold building folks- so if we come straight up from the charger there is a 90 into the intake manifold.

We could 90 into a water/air intercooler like this: http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...1a3e2e2ff7df90
then back up with a 90 into the intake. Sit the water tank right on top and should be good to go with all that in the space behind the headlights where the stock afm was.

Do you have some more photos of your intake plumbing?









haha!

[Q5Quint]

Transmission fluid temps are about the same as water temps- something like 150-200 degs. If you are trying to keep your intake at 90 they should easily be able to bleed off 1/2 the heat IF they have enough surface area inside your intake.

I cant find a correct equation so I just have to make assumptions. Looking at some core sizes and their rated cfm/hp support is the best I can do.

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=218&products_id=214&osCsid=94647bf2e094daae901a3e2e2ff7df90

if a 12.25"x12.25"x4.5" can support " up to 700 CFM / 600 HP" you should be good as long as your pressure drop in your intake isnt killing your performance. The heat exchanger is way easier to suck through than an air filter so I wouldnt think it would.


I think technically the water to air intercooler will be better at stopping heat soak than the air-air. With air-air as soon as you stop moving your intake temps will climb, but with water to air you have to also heat up the water too, so it might buy you a few minutes. However, it will also take a few minutes to cool BACK down once you start moving. A tranny cooler and electric fan is about the best thing you can do I believe. Monitor the intake temp and if it gets to hot- add a second tranny cooler... if it is still too hot.... add a second inline water-air exchanger.

My air-air had me at literally ambient temps with the turbo.... but it was massive. like 24x12x3 massive.

I think a 6x20x2.5 would be ideal for the bottom of the front bumper, but I didn't have the AC in there so not sure how much extra space there would be. Plenty of room for smaller water coolers though up above the bumper.

Here is a really odd shaped one if you want to get weird: http://www.cfrperformance.com/18_FIN.../hz-0052-1.htm

[Ether-D]

Then I searched on ebay for "transmission cooler". So many options for so cheap. My intake was built around the dimensions of the Koolance HEX that I have, so I'm bound to it for the internal one. On ebay, the $35 (shipped) ones are as big as 10"x12"x3/4". That is officially perfect for a home brew water to air setup. Gonna be sweet.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hayden-403-Transmission-Oil-Cooler-/281296685892?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item417e96cb44&vxp=mtr

[Ether-D]

Heck yes- I did the air compressor leakdown test on my charge pipes when I had the turbo- found all kinds of leaks just around the silicon connections etc. Some hairspray and some wiggling and tightening got them fixed. There was also the 1/4" threaded hole in the bottom of the intercooler that I forgot to screw a bolt into..... I am sure I got 1psi more or atleast some better boost response and lower turbine speeds from that.

For the folks who dont believe in water to air.... just do some math.

a 8"x4"x3/4" water-water heat exchanger will do about 22k btu for water to water..... so for the air-water the 14.5"x5"x4.5" makes sense.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=378896

Those guys have some good numbers but it does look like the water cooler unit in front is big as heck... like a/c condenser size.

I would leave everything stock and see if you can nab some transmission coolers off cars at the pick and pull for $5 or something. There is plenty of space behind the grill up there for something small like that without having to move things around.


Proper sizing would be figure out how many BTU that you need dissapate between certain cfm flow rates, figure out the surface area of cooler inside the intake you need, figure out that it is large enough to not block the flow of your intake, then size your external cooling radiator to match a certain % of that btu load. Making it too big wont hurt, since it will just be at ambient temp even if you were at WOT 24/7, but then it and the ex changer in the car might be unreasonably large. Maybe sizing for 75% would be normal, and 100% 'race' or something like that.



From what I can tell though that size difference isnt that big as you might think, since you can fit a lot of surface area into an inch of cooler.

13.5"x 4"x 3.5" - 350 CFM, 350 HP
14.5"x 5"x 4.5" - 550 CFM, 600 HP
15"x 6.5"x 6" - 1200 CFM, 1200 HP

Edit- after looking at some of this I might go the water route as well. No valence cutting or getting rid of headlights/brakes/condensors etc. The savings in tube/silicone plus time makes it worth it.

these are $35 for a 5x12x3/4" http://www.jegs.com/i/Flex-a-lite/40...oductId=756324

You could try one and if it wasnt enough add in a 2nd.

edit edit: even the $1300 tcd kit seems to use two small external coolers. http://turbochargingdynamics.com/?wp...y=intercoolers
no fans!

That transmission HEX is so awesome. For $35, its perfect...

[Ether-D]

Well, now I have 7psi peak. I gained a whole psi. I love this car.

The whole, hole in the intake HEX (heat exchanger) is a huge drag, but I'm ok to be at this level for a bit. So, when it gets all hot as the devil's anus this summer, will I be potentially getting into detonation trouble? I reckon I'll have to get the intercooler fixed by then. It won't be a huge deal. I just have to remove the SC and then remove and repair/replace the internal HEX. Then figure out where I'm gonna put the external HEX. Then run the electric and plumbing. It'll be a breeze.