any v12 swaps?

[RickSloan]

the 5 ecu's is because of the auto i believe. I think im remembering that from the build website for that twin turbo v12 swiss car...

he couldnt afford the manual...

[Jean]

Where is the video of the 850 series with the v12 starting up with the coil on it's side... I've seen a couple of these engines FS for less than $1000, but don't they have like 5 ECU's to run them? And most are with automatic transmissions :(

[euroshark]

I'm not saying that they don't last, I'm quite aware that there are high mileage S38s out there. The point I am making is that if you drive them hard they are not going to last as long, and they cost a fat chunk of money to properly rebuild. They are peaky and they make the "fun" power up high whereas the M30 and M70 make it at a considerably lower rpm and that stresses components less allowing them to last longer all things considered.

And I totally agree with the throttle body motor thing. The whole drive by wire thing seems retarded to me, but a little electric motor on a throttle body hardly renders an entire engine useless or crappy in terms of engineering. I've seen the E34 V12 that is all over youtube with the manual throttle body conversion... It can be done.

Let me just say that I have never owned an M70, I'm just trying to clear up some misconceptions. I have worked on a couple and I have been impressed not only by the design but also by how they feel and deliver their power.

[hugh jass]

the s38 is just like any other bmw 6 - if you take care of it it will last as long as any other bmw engine. go over to the m5 section at mye28. there are plenty of guys with s38s with 200k+ on them.
if you pay 1k for the timing components you've paid too much.
fahey makes a hardened crank bolt that takes care of the problems with the stock one.
yes the rebuilds cost a lot, but so does a rebuild on most motorsport engines, s50/52 included.
i doubt rebuilding a bmw v12 would be much cheaper.
oh, and i sure as shit wouldn't want to own a car with a 'throttle body motor'. that sounds expensive and unreliable.

[euroshark]

You are doing twice the maintenance of an M20 cause thats what it is. the engine cost way les but its going to take way more to get it working in the car.

A lot of people think this. The M70 is NOT simply a siamesed block with M20 parts on it. They use a timing chain, totally different valve train, etc. You don't do timing belts on M70s, you don't adjust valves every 15,000 miles... They suffer from bad intake manifold gaskets every decade or so, and like I said, the throttle body motors die here and there, but they really don't have many similarities to the M20 besides pistons that go up and down and valves that open and close.

[RickSloan]

Incredibly ignorant statement. The V12 is an engineering marvel and is built to last 300,000+ miles if properly maintained. They have 7 HUGE four-bolt main bearings for a durable bottom end, they are counterweighted to spin amazingly smooth, and the top ends are essentially maintenance free. They have a bad reputation for electronics, but it's generally the electronic throttle body motors that die.

Something that the Evo and STi driving crowd doesn't seem to understand is that you can NOT build an engine for absolute performance AND longevity. I worked with a guy who was surprised that his Evo engine started suffering from massive blow-by at around 40,000 miles, but never considered that he drove the piss out of it all day long. An engine that makes 150hp/liter is going to wear out components a hell of a lot faster than an engine that makes 65hp/liter-ish like the M30 or M70, especially if it's often driven to exploit that power potential. That's just a reality...

The M70 might not make "huge" power with bolt-on modifications but it's still a beautiful engine and in an E30 I bet it would be insanely fun. Heck... it would be cool to put one in an E24.

Now am I saying that I would? No... I don't believe that it's worth the effort in my case, but if you were looking to do a pretty unique swap I think it's a cool idea.

Edit: Fuck the S38! I almost bought an M635... ALMOST did it. Then I started looking at the prices for rebuild parts. Damn near $1000 JUST for the timing chain guide rails. They destroy the crank pulleys too. Oh, and valves? $1000 for valves and they are a recommended rebuild item because the stems are so slender that the potential is there for the heads to snap off! It's a fabulous engine too, but $10000 for a rebuild is bullshit. I'll take a turbocharged M30 over that any day.

mother fucking thread/

[euroshark]

The s38 would last longer then the v12. If you want somthing that has similar number to the v12 without the wieght and problems get a euro s50.

Incredibly ignorant statement. The V12 is an engineering marvel and is built to last 300,000+ miles if properly maintained. They have 7 HUGE four-bolt main bearings for a durable bottom end, they are counterweighted to spin amazingly smooth, and the top ends are essentially maintenance free. They have a bad reputation for electronics, but it's generally the electronic throttle body motors that die.

Something that the Evo and STi driving crowd doesn't seem to understand is that you can NOT build an engine for absolute performance AND longevity. I worked with a guy who was surprised that his Evo engine started suffering from massive blow-by at around 40,000 miles, but never considered that he drove the piss out of it all day long. An engine that makes 150hp/liter is going to wear out components a hell of a lot faster than an engine that makes 65hp/liter-ish like the M30 or M70, especially if it's often driven to exploit that power potential. That's just a reality...

The M70 might not make "huge" power with bolt-on modifications but it's still a beautiful engine and in an E30 I bet it would be insanely fun. Heck... it would be cool to put one in an E24.

Now am I saying that I would? No... I don't believe that it's worth the effort in my case, but if you were looking to do a pretty unique swap I think it's a cool idea.

Edit: Fuck the S38! I almost bought an M635... ALMOST did it. Then I started looking at the prices for rebuild parts. Damn near $1000 JUST for the timing chain guide rails. They destroy the crank pulleys too. Oh, and valves? $1000 for valves and they are a recommended rebuild item because the stems are so slender that the potential is there for the heads to snap off! It's a fabulous engine too, but $10000 for a rebuild is bullshit. I'll take a turbocharged M30 over that any day.

[E30SPDFRK]

/\ worst part is the wieght. they make the same amount of power as a s38 and the v12 is a piece of junk.

They weigh 20 pounds more than an s38 an 40 pound more than a 24v. The weight is farther back than it would be with an s38 too. The engine itself is actually pretty reliable.

The s38 would last longer then the v12. If you want somthing that has similar number to the v12 without the wieght and problems get a euro s50.

s38 is nowhere near as reliable as a m70, in addition to costing 10 times as much in initial cost and maintenance. A euro s50 is a nice engine, but they cost almost as much as a s38.

You are doing twice the maintenance of an M20 cause thats what it is. the engine cost way les but its going to take way more to get it working in the car.

But how often do you do maintenance to an m20? And really, how much is maintenance on an m20? If someone is even considering doing a v12 swap, they should be able to afford the maintenance on one.

Getting the engine in the car really isn't that hard to do. There's no need for subframe spacing like you need to do with a s38, and they fit fine width and length wise. The hardest part with the swap is getting all of the v12's wiring to work in the e30.


In all reality, a LSx is the best engine for an e30. People just don't like non-BMW swaps for some reason.

[e34john]

It may not be worth it to some, but saying it's not worth it at all just isn't true. You can get a v12 for way less than you could get a s5x, and they make way more power.

The worst part is finding a standard transmission for them.

You are doing twice the maintenance of an M20 cause thats what it is. the engine cost way les but its going to take way more to get it working in the car.

[e30s52]

The s38 would last longer then the v12. If you want somthing that has similar number to the v12 without the wieght and problems get a euro s50.

[Holland]

I've seen one done in a twin turbo setup, it was supposedly making 850bhp, but id didn't look like it was running good. When you can get 1100bhp out of an s38, i don't think it would be the best solution, fitting that thing in would probably be a bitch as well. Don't let R3V soot your dreams down if you really want to do it though.

[e30s52]

/\ worst part is the wieght. they make the same amount of power as a s38 and the v12 is a piece of junk.

[E30SPDFRK]

It may not be worth it to some, but saying it's not worth it at all just isn't true. You can get a v12 for way less than you could get a s5x, and they make way more power.

The worst part is finding a standard transmission for them.

[e34john]

Yes I have seen one,
Yes it is possible,
No it is not worth it.

[e30s52]

not worth it.