325ic Calypso Euro Conversion - Houndstooth & dbilas now, MT1 & MM 3.2 stroker coming

[JasonBates]

That's the plan initially. It's supposed to be a bolt on kit right? That way I can focus on the piggyback, AFM alternative, etc. Will weld up an extra bung for a wideband O2 as well. After that I can decide then if I need to go with a bigger plenum or not. Will try to get the car dyno'd before and after for comparison.

The metering and management system is what I'm still trying to figure out myself. No idea what to run.

[bradnic]

whodwho has an M20 SC setup..

I think supercharger options for M20 are a bit limited but I may be misinformed.

check out whodwho's serpentine+SC M20 incredible work. serpentine makes a lot of sense with this application since you'd have the SC, AC, PS and alt all hanging off the crank.




EDIT: found this pic too later in the thread. Man this really looks terrific. He mentioned having to swap out the intake boot (or at least heavily reinforce it so it doesn't balloon or split).



updated setup with boot replaced


I had an R53 JCW Mini Cooper and loved the SC in it. Really second guessing my ITB direction now :-P
or.... phase 3!! maybe combine them? my guess is it would be a waste of resources and effort.

[bradnic]

Here's a pic of Frank Porro's dbilas+RD header setup from last year (he was the guy that arrange a new run of those headers). Note no AFM - he was also using a Miller MAF conversion. Since then he was experimenting with a larger CF air box and some prototype PVC runners. Not sure of current status yet. Hopefully we'll hear from him.

[bradnic]

Chasing fporro

Heard back from him and found some posts of his where he describes the dbilas setup

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpost.php?p=2008329&postcount=669

So far it feels like flying a kite, you must keep velocity in the stacks to make it take off, great throttle response at first but flattens out., play with throttle (tense the line on kite) and you feel it catch a sencond, 3rd, 4th wind. I think those short fat runners are too much of a compromise., or at least i'll find out :)

running Millers MAF & W.A.R. combo with 19lbs. need to install mill's afpr this week.

I asked him about all the different plenum setups he's been trying. good answer:

Hi Brad, I like experimenting, hence the interest in plenum, trying to brake the 220HP's from a M20 stroker/itb combo.

He describes the large M20/dbilas CF air box here

Contacted VFT ... http://www.verbundfasertechnik-opitz.com/8.html they produce a dbilas / m20 specific carbon airbox, yeap, m20 carbon air box, thrumpets are mid range.
should be here in a few days, next will be yzf style thumpets and i'm done.

with the Miller combo I should be able to work it all out :)

So it was apparently made by VFT in Europe. Their website isn't functioning and I haven't found any other info online other that Frank's posts.

[JasonBates]

Awesome. I did a little looking around and found that you can either go full standalone or just run the miller set up. I'm leaning more towards the Miller set up.

And I found another possible ITB set up, but it would need a plenum made up. And to get the correct stacks. As far as the flying the kite, I think that's all in the length of the stacks.


I wonder how fporro's gotten with everything.

[bradnic]

dbilas reality check - will likely need FI too.

swapped some lengthy PMs with Frank and finally have all the background info. Will be updating the thread with links and data. In short

-- the dbilas plenum is too small. It will most likely drop midrange torque on a stock motor, and because the runner lengths are short the top end won't improve much either. so basically you will potentially get less perf than the stock mani. on the plus side throttle response is definitely improved. Bottom line: if you're looking to use a dbilas setup for pure performance reasons you will be disappointed.

-- the installation is not turnkey as there are clearance issues in 2 places, the heater core connections and the thermostat housing. so you need to cut the heater core connection back 20+mm and grind some material away from the thermostat housing. There is also a custom throttle cable that didn't come with my kit. Finally one of the stock intake studs needs to be swapped out. None of this is major.

so now we know why Frank's looking at alternative plenums.. he doesn't have the CF airbox installed on his car yet because he needs to get a brake booster adapter built so he can move it forward between runners 5 and 6.

At this stage I'm still definitely moving forward, but it looks like I need to get over my MS issues and get real - MS3, MAF conversion etc. It also appears that I ought to seriously consider FI as well.

Bottom line: I'm definitely not going to swap the dbilas plenum out, so if I need more torque and ponies for this setup (very likely), I will have to force more air into the motor. If I go SC ala whodwho then I could drop some headers in as well. Otherwise I'm looking at a TCD log manifold and undermount turbo. I prefer the SC.

[bradnic]

some info and links for dbilas M20 stuff

Read on below for full details, but this quote from digger sums up what we can expect from a NA dbilas setup beautifully:

[planning an M20] 2.8 stroker 10.5:1 with schtick 272 [, and I want dbilas ITBs]

With that all you will gain is throttle response and a big hole in midrange may a bit extra up top but "a bit" is the key

[if I were doing this I would look for] something with less than 40mm diameter (38mm) with a system that lets you adjust the runner length and different plenum.

A kit like that doesn't exist right now, so anyone going with a dbilas setup is not doing it for pure performance. With that expectation set, many thanks to fporro for pointers to most of these sources that follow.

Two more great quotes, from a bfc M20 ITB thread:

dbilas and extrudabody would be easiest but probably not the best. You can buy an adapter to bolt to the head and do a DIY or just cut up a stock manfold and use as an adapter. You'll not want to go too big on runner size otherwise you'll lose power everywhere 45mm is too large i would do 40mm on a 3.1L rally engine or smaller M20 race. You'd also want adjustability in the length. You could make something up with a nice plenum and single throttle body which would make it cheaper and simpler, you would not lose any power because the actual individual throttles are only there for transient throttle response and any gains by going to an ITB sydtem are from geometry changes to the runners and plenum.

I seriously doubt you have any reason to need ITB's, much less benefit from them on your M20. ITB's hardly provide any power gains aside from throttle response, and on a m20 regardless of modification level.. the cylinder head design is still the greatest single thing holding it back.. it just doesn't flow well enough.

Once you have spent 5-10k building a stout M20, then would be an appropriate time for an icing on the cake mod... like ITB's.. to eek out every last drop.

Different people have different goals for ITBs, and those goals definitely depend on budgets. you really need to take these perspectives into consideration when reading comments. in my opinion:

- racer/track guys will do whatever is needed to reach perf goals consistent with their budget and race class rules, stock/oem be damned.

- Many non-racers want streetable performance and don't want to hack their engine bays. If they're really OEM+ anal like I am they're a royal PITA and would give up perf to keep things closer to stock.

It definitely helps if you actually have a clue about the physics involved. In my experience the racers know their sh*t in this area much better than the OEM+ types. Tradeoffs always exist, and not knowing what's possible for a given design means you're flying blind.

btw, I don't address head flow, stroking the motor etc. here at all. Much broader, well covered topic elsewhere.

Fun M20 ITB summary thread - great place to start. Digger's quote above comes from this thread

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=220997

Here's a great writeup on intake runner design. From an MGC fuel injection DIY site.

http://mgcgti.com/Page40.html

official dbilas M20 install instructions - not very complete though

https://www.sendspace.com/file/xalja7

dbilas M20 installation thread from South Africa. MUST READ. Terrific, detailed. Disappointing performance outcome though.

http://www.e30clubsa.co.za/forum/index.php?/topic/8478-dbilas-individual-throttle-bodies-installation-on-m20-325i/

some additional M20 ITB discussion threads, mostly on e30tech. digger is all over these and seems to know this topic cold. Rama (e21jps) is also extremely knowledgeable. Both are Aussies - no surprise there!

GREAT one from digger including software modeling of various intake configs

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104925

Rama's M20 ITB setup, no plenum and long trumpets. 24 HP improvement and no loss of torque over stock

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118357

Rama's ITB survey thread (good discussion)

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118176

Frank's plenum thread detailing mods needed to get the CF plenum to fit

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109778

there are more threads out there but these cover the most relevant dbilas points.

so once you're past all that you can start to understand what digger's asking about in the quote below. if there was an answer to this, I think it would be the ideal dbilas plenum:

the journey is half the fun....if you want a challenge a ITB setup that fits with E30 standard booster, has decent length runners and cold air box/plenum with filter.

Finally here are some quotes from one of Frank's PMs which he gave me permission to post.

install advice beyond the MUST READ South Africa thread

- do not screw around with throttle plate adjustment screws, they come preset (synchronized) from factory.

- my TPS keep coming loose, it's a pain to adjust as it sits next to fire wall, do check on/off settings with potentiometer while on ITB's, do it before you install it onto head.

cf airbox install status

Yet to install CF airbox as need a 1 3/8" thick spacer to clear Brake Booster.

performance

You're going to notice a huge difference as far as throttle response, you're oem chip will work marginally ok. definitely go for a Miller WAR or the newest MS kit

injectors

I would recommend you 19lbs injectors (4 pintle type) Robert Calhoun at www.e30motorwerks.com has them rebuilt.

headers

as far as headers, I added Super Sprint (ebay copies) headers prior to ITB's so it's harder to notice difference, with RD's there seems to be more progressive and stable from 2,800 to 4500 rpm's, that was the most noticeable rpm range. they let engine breath a lot better, nice sound too.

Miller MAF+WAR setup (he's now using MS)

WAR chip is good, but simplistic, car ran ok with it, stable idle., did tuned it a few times. it's worth it, my issue was wanting to use an rising rate TPS instead of our On-Off type, the W.A.R. tunes do not let you do that with m20 tunes.

Adjustable FPR

Also use an adjustable Fuel Pressure regulator, I'm running a Miller setup at 3.3Bar (oem 3.0 in cabrios and 2.5bar on iS, eS models).

MS

Upgraded to MS2 as it has ITB as well as Alpha N modes, it is possible to run hybrid tunes for excellent idle, i'm on ITB as primary and Alpha N as secondary, car idles very well 850 rpm's.

CAI

Kmotorsports sells a nifty Cold Air Intake that's basically a cone filter inside a carbon fiber canister so you won't suck in hot hair. they match perfectly to Millers MAF/WAR conversions.

[bradnic]

Awesome. I did a little looking around and found that you can either go full standalone or just run the miller set up. I'm leaning more towards the Miller set up.

As mentioned in the previous post, Frank started this way too, including the Miller MAF and FPR. If you're going to stay with the dbilas setup and are willing to deal with the midrange torque loss then I think that's a perfectly acceptable setup. You could probably do the same thing with Motronic+Ostrich too. Going beyond that though would be a problem I think. Probably why Frank switched to MS.

I'm going to do my ITB build in stages, and I'm definitely end up with SC+ITB if I can sort it out. So I'm gonna take the plunge and go MS3 too. Might as well get used to is as soon as possible.

And I found another possible ITB set up, but it would need a plenum made up. And to get the correct stacks. As far as the flying the kite, I think that's all in the length of the stacks.

Check out Rama's ITB thread on the previous post. No plenum in his setup though.

[robrez]

You're on fire. I've pondered the euro side repeaters. Did you see the poll I started? Lot's of pics, but all mtech IIs. I think I'm going to add them for the safety benefit. I'll wire them to be on when my lights are on, and blink with the front blinkers.

[bradnic]

If it was anyone else I'd stick to my current thinking ;-) your poll was pretty cool btw. no MT1 / pre-facelift car pics though :-(

So you haven't added them yet? Something's stopping you...

Side markers make the most sense to me when they are on the ends of the vehicle. The test cases for me are an intersection on a busy high speed road, or coming out of an obstructed driveway. When the car's nose is sticking out at an intersection at night waiting to make a turn, the reflector can be seen by a car coming from their side quite far away. It gives the other driver time to react.

These are behind the front wheel though, and for that reason I don't think the safety aspect is as effective.

So here's my argument against:
- they're not placed in the correct spot for maximum safety. they should be on the corners of the vehicle, not behind the front tires.
- it's clearly a major decision to cut a hole in your fender for them
- the OEM versions look like an afterthought, in a similar those less severe way than DBs do on US pre-facelift cars.

If there were a less drastic way to add them on the corners I would. pre-facelift options for something like that are pretty minimal. I think you have much more flexibility though.

UPDATE: btw.. if I had kids in my car I wouldn't hesitate to put the side markers/repeaters back on.

[bradnic]

Hartge H27 SP had 2.7 with ITBs

Didn't know there was a Hartge H27SP with ITB setup.. engine was 10.2:1 CR, 2.7L, 220HP... nice pics show much longer runner length then dbilas, plenum details.. Also if you look closely at the engine compartment it looks like the brake booster is in the stock location.


pics from e30zone Hartge page

e30m3s54turbo's pic of an H27SP (probably from a catalog)


cool ad over on this rtsauto page of the same car. Here's the English text:

The outstanding feature of this sports saloon is the combination of very high engine output with the retention of refined characteristics.

The 10.2:1 compression 2.7 liter six cylinder two valve engine delivers 162kW (220hp) at 6400 rpm. This is the technical maximum performance based on the "small" six cylinder engine. In order to achieve this considerable 60 kW (81 hp) per litre output, the advanced single throttle system was required. The function being that each cylinder has its own mixture control system with throttle valve and fuel injector. Extensive development was required due to the optimization of the intake length and cross-sectional area combined with the detailed reprofiling of the Motronic system. The result is optimal performance which sets new standards in running and performance.

The 2.7 liter engine with high torque output is remarkable in the saloon as well as in the 325iX or Cabro. The H 27 SP will achieve 0-100 km/h (0-62/5 mpg) in 7 secs with a top speed of 234 km/h (146 mph). The long final gearing of the five speed gearbox becomes a usable driving ratio. Especially impressive is that breathtaking acceleration which remains evident right through to terminal speed

So they tuned a Motronic to support these... wow. I assume it was a Hartge specific ECU.

Found this on a French website - the car was for sale @ 8900 EUR


Someone actually just sold one of these on ebay.de.

UPDATE: guess who bought it? Mr Hartge, e30m3s54turbo.. check out his H35 replica build :-)

[bradnic]

You're on fire. I've pondered the euro side repeaters. Did you see the poll I started? Lot's of pics, but all mtech IIs. I think I'm going to add them for the safety benefit. I'll wire them to be on when my lights are on, and blink with the front blinkers.

Hey Rob - check the side marker/repeaters out on this one. looks fine to me :-)

[e30m3s54turbo]

Wow,Brad! Sub'd.

[N2MYE30]

A little motivation for you. :)

[bradnic]

That is a stunning setup no doubt. The carbs look killer

That relocated brake booster looks really well done. Definitely dont want to do that to my vert tho.