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The Journey of Linda and Friends - the M20b31 Lives

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    Originally posted by kronus View Post
    there's not really super significant clearance issues with the M30. The distributor cap is furthest forward, and with typical mounts it sits less than a cm from the radiator, which is close but serviceable with angry enough motor mounts.

    the intake manifold is not really near the brake booster in any appreciable way. I've never heard of clearance issues between those two parts.

    you only have to bash the firewall if you run a B34, which has a water fitting on the back of the head. as I can see from the photo of your motor, you don't, so you won't.

    the m30 is not any harder to keep cool, although it will benefit from a 6cyl radiator rather than the 4cyl unit. people have issues with it because it's a little bit of a pain in the ass to bleed properly, though, but there's a trick for it - http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=58368

    your M20 clutch is likely a 228mm unit; you'll need a 240mm unit to fit an M30 flywheel and pressure plate. also, 7# is pretty underweight and you might end up with idle issues.

    I haven't had failures with the stock rocker retainer system in an M30 head in ~7 years of endurance racing. unclear that the IE rocker retainers are worth it.
    Thanks for the knowledge!

    Yep, I'm thankful for not having to clearance a bunch of stuff- the small things in that regard tend to kill timeframes.

    As for the booster, I've read in a few threads where one person pipes up and claims they had to move their booster over 1/2" for IM clearance, but a) I've never seen photos and b) they could've had the engine mounted in a less-than-ideal manner.

    The flywheel in question is the RHD M30 flywheel which accepts a 228mm clutch. The guy I got the trans from has a fresh M30 single mass flywheel and clutch setup he offered me, but I was hoping to save a few lbs on the flywheel and a few bucks reusing the new clutch I just put in my car. Rama's HD m30 flywheel weighs 8.5lbs and takes a 240mm clutch, perhaps that'd be a better route....or just to not use a lightweight flywheel at all and snag that local 240mm setup for cheap. I know a few folks who use the 7# on the M20 without issue, but I have no idea how an M30 would handle such a light flywheel.

    That's extremely good to know about the rocker locks! I'll do a bit more research and likely cross them off the list.

    Turns out half the fancy stuff I needed I don't even need. This is getting cheaper by the minute! Thankfully Vic included the both chains, rails, tensioner, and various other parts to help the build along.

    I think I'm going to try to use my stock M20 engine harness and just lengthen a few connectors as opposed to using an M30 harness. I also need an M30 TB if anyone has one.
    1990 Brilliantrot 325iS Build Thread
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      Alignment day! Everything turned out well and the gentleman who did it was quite pleased with the car. The adjustability of everything allowed for achieving my desired specs. The thing drives like a dream now! The back end I think could come down a touch but I'm going to leave it alone for the time being.

      Once my insurance and registration go through I can drop it off for exhaust work. I purchased two additional 12" 2.25" bullet resonators for the mid pipe so it's not too loud for long trips.

      Untitled by Bobbie Morrone, on Flickr
      Untitled by Bobbie Morrone, on Flickr
      Untitled by Bobbie Morrone, on Flickr
      Last edited by AWDBOB; 06-21-2018, 01:48 PM.
      1990 Brilliantrot 325iS Build Thread
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        Originally posted by AWDBOB View Post
        I've reached a new max displacement cargo level for the back of the Subaru- 3.5 whole liters.

        Untitled by Bobbie Morrone, on Flickr
        Come on!!! I've been searching for an M30 for 3 months now and can't find one...
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          I love my M30 swap. Whatever you do don't buy Garagistic motor mounts. Get the e30.de or Rapid Spool Industries mounts as they leave enough room up front for a e28 535 radiator and a M30 A/C compressor.
          You only really need to beat in the firewall where transmission bellhousing rises up to meet the cylinder head. I beat mine in a little before I even mounted the engine. It wasn't even necessary.

          As you can see I omitted the transmission bolt in that location.

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            Originally posted by stonea View Post
            Come on!!! I've been searching for an M30 for 3 months now and can't find one...
            I got lucky and a local friend had one that he didn't end up using! Got it for a good price with a bunch of goodies with it. I also found a low milage trans, single mass flywheel and clutch locally. This must be meant to be, as I have nearly all of the parts I need minus mounts and I hardly have any $$ wrapped up in it.

            I searched car-part in your area and there's one out of a 735i 15 miles from Norfolk!

            Originally posted by st.petebiodiesel View Post
            I love my M30 swap. Whatever you do don't buy Garagistic motor mounts. Get the e30.de or Rapid Spool Industries mounts as they leave enough room up front for a e28 535 radiator and a M30 A/C compressor.
            You only really need to beat in the firewall where transmission bellhousing rises up to meet the cylinder head. I beat mine in a little before I even mounted the engine. It wasn't even necessary.

            As you can see I omitted the transmission bolt in that location.
            I am excited! I really do want to enjoy the M20 for a while, as I put a decent bit of work getting it all together. I already spoke with Otis and will be purchasing his mounts with a modified passenger mount for additional header clearance.

            I'll be using my stock engine harness and modifying it for the application. I have a 179 ECU, AFM, OE head gasket, timing chains/rails/tensioner, head bolts, stem seals etc. I need to buy rockers, a 284 IE billet cam, and get a valve job and some smooth done and it really won't take much to get it in the car.

            I'm just trying to work out a) what I'll need to do with shift linkage with my M30 g260 to fit in the E30, b) what headers will fit without much modification and c) if I want to go straight to Megasquirt after I get it in the car+running.

            After trading/selling some parts that I acquired with all this stuff I currently have -$25 into the motor, maintenance items above, 60K mile M30 g260, like new e28 single mass flywheel and like new sachs PP/clutch.
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              Originally posted by AWDBOB View Post
              I searched car-part in your area and there's one out of a 735i 15 miles from Norfolk!
              Hmmm, thats super tempting. Thanks for the heads up, I might have a new summer project thanks to you, lol.
              My Garage
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              1988 325ix Diamond Schwartz/Black (Izzy)
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                Originally posted by AWDBOB View Post
                After trading/selling some parts that I acquired with all this stuff I currently have -$25 into the motor, maintenance items above, 60K mile M30 g260, like new e28 single mass flywheel and like new sachs PP/clutch.


                This right here is #Winning


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                  are you just planning on a general engine refresh? I've seen some pretty sweet dyno sheets from more built m30s
                  1984 Delphin 318i 2 door

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                    Originally posted by stonea View Post
                    Hmmm, thats super tempting. Thanks for the heads up, I might have a new summer project thanks to you, lol.
                    No prob! Also keep an eye on your local LKQ/PicknPull. I've noticed that most folks don't have M30s lying around for sale on the forums/craigslist anymore, they're much more of a pick n pull/salvage yard find since people aren't parting out E34s as much as folks part out E30s.

                    Originally posted by oekundar View Post
                    This right here is #Winning
                    I think so! Thankful for a few local guys who hooked it up in addition to taking parts in on trade made the bulk items quite affordable.

                    Originally posted by wworm View Post
                    are you just planning on a general engine refresh? I've seen some pretty sweet dyno sheets from more built m30s
                    Short answer:

                    Yep, bottom end is staying stock!

                    Long answer:

                    I'm basically mirroring my M20 setup. Cam, some head work, long tubes, stock bottom end. I'm doing this for as little $$ as possible, because the more I open the can of wworms the less likely I am to finish it. However, it'd be fun to open up the block to Euro 93.4mm, use custom pistons keeping the b35 86mm stroke. But for that $3K+ you just spent you only see 10-20hp (sometimes not even that).

                    Basically, the reason for doing this is to add a liter of displacement for as little $$ as possible, keeping an M20 comparison in close perspective so I don't lose sight of the goal. M20b25 stock is 163hp, M30b35 is 211hp.

                    Most M20 strokers make 200whp for $3-4K+. M30b35 with a 284 cam, head work and long tubes (with standalone) can make close to that for minimal investment, giving you me a cheap foundation for other mods like ITBs and whatnot down the road.

                    Basically, with M30s, I've noticed the power potential seems to be very minimal outside of some bolt ons in naturally aspirated trim, so it's "value" to me lies in stock/bolt on potential with 1L over an M20, as value in building doesn't correlate results with dollars spent after the stock bottom end is out the window.

                    LJ851's Schnitzer 3.7L if I recall correctly had: bigger valves, ported head, big cam, s38 crank, billet rods, long tubes, and standalone and made 230whp for what was probably $10K in engine work.
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                      The Journey of Linda- a 325iS M20 Build

                      All this talk about horsepower but you’re leaving out the biggest package the m30 brings to the table. All dem torks. Im sure that 3.7l made a ton compared to the m20. I’d also be super curious to see if you could get your car corner weighted before and after the swap for a very direct before and after weight difference comparison. Most people who’ve done it also strip their cars/make other mods along the way that might throw it off

                      I’m excited for this. M30 swaps are cool


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                        Originally posted by wworm View Post
                        All this talk about horsepower but you’re leaving out the biggest package the m30 brings to the table. All dem torks. Im sure that 3.7l made a ton compared to the m20. I’d also be super curious to see if you could get your car corner weighted before and after the swap for a very direct before and after weight difference comparison. Most people who’ve done it also strip their cars/make other mods along the way that might throw it off

                        I’m excited for this. M30 swaps are cool
                        I'd love to corner weight if I could find someone with scales locally.

                        All the torque! My findings have shown on average that most M30s make +/- 10% more torque than HP. Also, taking it with a grain of salt but, see how the power doesn't increase much over the MAF conversion + tune cars below when big $ mods are thrown at the M30?

                        All figures below are from actual dyno graphs, dyno types/conditions/settings obviously vary.


                        M30

                        183/191 - ported head, cam and maf conversion
                        190/200 - chip and exhaust
                        191/209 - 284 and maf conversion (what I'm shooting for)
                        196/218 - Miller Maf + Tune
                        200/213 - 3.6L, high comp, ported head
                        218/229 - Big $$$ Hartage Top End/Headers
                        242/228 - s38 ITBs, 284, shaved cylinder head


                        M20

                        140/163 - e bottom end w 885
                        160/167 - low comp 2.8, 272
                        173/145 - i w/head work, 272, extrudabody ITBs, MS PnP
                        177/150 - i w/head work, 272, RHD ITBs
                        197/197 - high comp 2.8, ported head, 272
                        211/198 - 2.8, 9.5:1, head work, 272, RHD ITBs
                        219/216 - high comp 3.1l, head work, 298 cam, ITBs


                        So what's with this info, you say?

                        1) Cost analysis of the above points to M30 vs M20 stroker for hp/tq per dollar, which is why I'm moving forward with the big six.
                        2) In almost all of the cases above, putting $$$ in an M30 results in very little gain. I think a stock bottom end b35 with bolt ons will be a great value for what you're getting.
                        3) It takes lets say $4K in mods on an M20 to get to where a b35 w 1K in mods is at, and the M20 still makes much less torque in that case.
                        4) The only M30 dyno I found with ITBs resulted in very, very nice results, which makes future bolt on mod potential decent.
                        1990 Brilliantrot 325iS Build Thread
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                          this is fun math.

                          yeah, out of the box the m30 really shines. A few bolt ons here and there will give you super fun results, especially headers to really hear that single cam glory. Timing CHAIN is a nice touch as well lol.
                          1984 Delphin 318i 2 door

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                            Originally posted by wworm View Post
                            this is fun math.

                            yeah, out of the box the m30 really shines. A few bolt ons here and there will give you super fun results, especially headers to really hear that single cam glory. Timing CHAIN is a nice touch as well lol.
                            Yep, I think it'll be a good move! Minimal work and minimal investment. If you're only looking at numbers and not $$ vs ## the M/S52 family clearly shines. It's just the metric ton of small stuff you need to complete the swap properly that adds up to no end. Just looking through the Market Motorworks 24v dyno thread always leaves me feeling "damn why don't I just do an M52 with S52 cams and make 225whp" and then I remember, oh I tried that and wasted way too much money doing it.

                            I have hope that the M30 will be the perfect compromise that should silence my parts buying need for a while so I can focus on the M.
                            1990 Brilliantrot 325iS Build Thread
                            1989 Zinnoberrot M3 Build Thread

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                              I love my B35 swap. It can be a good bang for the buck. It is interesting looking at various Dyno numbers. My car has a stock head in good shape with a decent aftermarket cam, 10.5:1 pistons, long tube Bavauto headers, and megasquirt and most recently made 193 hp and 203 ft lbs on a Dynomite Dyno.

                              Prior to going with megasquirt I had home ported B35 manifolds instead of the headers and had a Miller WAR chip/MAF. On a Dyno Dynamics Dyno it made 205 hp and 240 ft lbs.

                              The weird part is that it looks like my car lost power and torque by going with a better exhaust setup and with the more extensive tuning I put in. I put this down to the differences in the dynos and calibrations used. What are the actual numbers? I have no clue but I can say it pulls pretty hard. The redline is basically 6000 and I am happy with it as is. I was willing to give up a bit of top end power for a more in the mid range. With a fairly light flywheel and the right diff ratio ( somewhere between 3.46 and 3.73 in my opinion) it is a fun setup. If my car weighed closer to 2400 lbs than 2800 a 3.25 diff might also work.

                              I love to see where your project is going. It seems like M30 swaps are making a comeback:up:
                              Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. -Mark Twain

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                                I love my B35 swap. It can be a good bang for the buck. It is interesting looking at various Dyno numbers. My car has a stock head in good shape with a decent aftermarket cam, 10.5:1 pistons, long tube Bavauto headers, and megasquirt and most recently made 193 hp and 203 ft lbs on a Dynomite Dyno.

                                Prior to going with megasquirt I had home ported B35 manifolds instead of the headers and had a Miller WAR chip/MAF. On a Dyno Dynamics Dyno it made 205 hp and 240 ft lbs.

                                The weird part is that it looks like my car lost power and torque by going with a better exhaust setup and with the more extensive tuning I put in. I put this down to the differences in the dynos and calibrations used. What are the actual numbers? I have no clue but I can say it pulls pretty hard. The redline is basically 6000 and I am happy with it as is. I was willing to give up a bit of top end power for a more in the mid range. With a fairly light flywheel and the right diff ratio ( somewhere between 3.46 and 3.73 in my opinion) it is a fun setup. If my car weighed closer to 2400 lbs than 2800 a 3.25 diff might also work.

                                I love to see where your project is going. It seems like M30 swaps are making a comeback:up:
                                Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. -Mark Twain

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