Official Aviation Thread...

[M-technik-3]

[FLYNAVY]

^ Nice…..have always liked the WB's. Got a chance to climb around one while visiting the NASA facility in Ellington. Cool birds, very unique mission.

[M-technik-3]

Amazed that they haven't killed em off yet. But word is a 4th is being finished up soon and will be flying. Bomb bay offers so much room for......well stuff.

[BlackbirdM3]

Irony, RB57 leads to U2, leads to A-12/SR-71. Two of the 3 are still flying... Not the one that flew higher and faster than the other two and was never shot down. Oops.

Cool pics. The WB57s are indeed cool I'd love to see one in person. The flight of 3 would have been cool to see.

Will

[M-technik-3]

[BlackbirdM3]

A12 931 being delivered to the Minnesota ANG Museum where it was fully restored. In 2006 it was removed (much to the dismay of those who put a ton of time and effort into restoring it) from the MANG museum and taken to Langley VA where it now sits in front of the CIA Headquarters. (Dial 911, they were robbed!)



Will

[BlackbirdM3]

Totally fanciful, but still kinda cool. I just finished up this 1/48 scale AVRO CF-105 Arrow. Only one flew, but it was an amazing aircraft. I got creative with the paint job trying to come up with something that could have been used in the far north of Canada. An aggressor snow camo look.

The Arrow was learning how to go fast LONG before anyone else knew how to do it. RL201 reached Mach 1.98 in 1954 with engines never designed for the plane. It was never flown with the Orenda Iroquois engines that caused a B47 to bend during testing (34K lbs of thrust each, the Arrow was to use 2 of them.) With the Iroquois engines AVRO figured it was capable of nearly Mach 3 if not Mach 3. They knew it couldn't sustain that speed as it couldn't handle the heat, but the engineers plotted that it could get there. This thing was WAY beyond what the US or anyone else had on the drawing boards at the time.






Pics of a real Arrow.








The death of the dream...





All that remains...


Will

[Eric]

They are working on those WB's up in centennial CO!

[Eric]

The death of the dream...

Will

Why did it get chopped up like that?

[mrsleeve]

Just looks funny, like someone took a gun run at them with a 20mm canon.

[FLYNAVY]

wait all that is left of the entire fleet is the nose section of one jet? That is crazy…..really cool jet

[BlackbirdM3]

Why did it get chopped up like that?

That is part of the mystery about the program. They were essentially scrapped on the assembly line. There are rumors that one escaped, but its never been found (Well, perhaps it has, there is a guy who is 99% sure he knows where it is, and has enough info and data to possibly support his claim.)

Some theories are that Russian spys were in the program and stealing secrets about it. More likely is that the US strong armed Canada into scrapping it as it was better than anything else in the world, and it wasn't US. The U2 was easy prey for it (we can't have that now can we?)

There is a very interesting book called "Storms of Controversy" by Palmiro Campagna

http://www.amazon.com/Storms-Controversy-Secret-Arrow-Revealed/dp/1554886988/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453261636&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Storms+of+Controversy+Palmiro+Canpagna

That is worth a read. Its got copies of classified documents that really make you go Hmmmmm.

Here is the Wiki on it, but the book goes into far more detail and has the copied official documents that really get into detail. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_CF-105_Arrow

How far ahead of its time was it? Lets see here... Fly by wire? Check. Internal missile/bomb bay? check. Mach 2.5+... check. Stealth? That is a very good question, looking at the design, it might have a very low cross section.

The cancellation of the Arrow destroyed the company. Many of the brilliant minds who designed it were grabbed by Lockheed (although I haven't found mention of any of the AVRO engineers working on the SR-71 or A-12 programs) NASA grabbed a large number and put them to work on the Gemini and Apollo programs. I think a few went to Bell/Hughes. So many of the US programs made out like bandits its not funny. The Canadian aviation industry withered and died. It had such a massive effect that the Canadian economy suffered as well.


Skip forward 60 years. The Arrow is dead correct? Yes and no. A Canadian company by the name of Boudreau Industries thinks otherwise. They want to revive the dream, and build on it.







Artist's rendering...



Clearly, the Boudreau guys are serious. On paper the Mk3 Arrow destroys everything in the sky currently. An interesting side note, Russia recently announced they wanted to build a Mach 4 MiG. Is there anything that can play above Mach 2.5? Nope. The Arrow MK3 however is the only thing looking to play in the rarified air beyond Mach 3. F35? Pshhh, total waste of $. They have been trying to make it work for the past 20 years. They still haven't.

Revive the dream that once was, let the Arrow fly once more.

Will

[FLYNAVY]

That is cool, and I have no doubt the "new" version would be a performance monster. That having been said, a raw interceptor (which this would be) is of somewhat limited use. NORAD/homeland defense, I'd buy that if we were truly worried about Bears/Blackjacks/etc rushing across the arctic circle and shooting nuclear cruise missiles. For most of the rest of that mission, a mach 1-2 F-15 or F-16 can probably fit the bill. Obviously the Russians still field the MIG-31, but that is more of a time-distance equation problem that exists basically along all of their borders, not just one that is really only a player on day one of WWIII. Cool idea though, doubt it will gain any traction.

[BlackbirdM3]

Canada has different needs than the US. Large areas of, well, nothing. They are looking to replace the CF-18s, and the US is trying to shove the F-35 down their throats (Just as they did with the BOMARC Missile when the first Arrow came out. The Bomarc was a POS, so is the F35. Funny how history repeats itself) Canada needs to have something fast to cover the vast distances between its bases, and its northern borders. NORAD is a US thing, If Canada is smart they will buy/build something that allows them to cover their own borders regardless of NORAD. Canada has a whole lot more coastline to defend than the US does. When you stop and think about it, its the same dilemma they faced in the '50s. Is an attack going to be ICBM launched from Siberia over the North pole, or will it be an aerial attack with cruise missiles? Whoever is attacking is going to do the opposite of what its expected. Hell, it could be China.

Also with the speed and altitude capabilities of the new Arrow, it could be a damn good reconnaissance plane, filling the same shoes the SR-71 did, only higher and faster flying. Sure, a satellite can do the job but you can plot the path of a satellite, and know when to hide whatever it is that you need to hide. A manned high speed reconnaissance platform can come from any direction, at anytime, and can make multiple passes. The U2 is the US aerial reconnaissance platform, and yet it still suffers from the same vulnerabilities that it did 60 years ago. That leaves a big hole over denied airspace that it can't go. An Arrow at Mach 5 and 100K ft plus can. Heck the SR-71 could still do the job it was designed to do with about the same risk. It would still take a golden BB shot to hit it. An additional 20K feet of ceiling and 1500 mph more speed over the SR would go a very long way.

Canada would be stupid to buy something that costs more and doesn't work. If they were to build the Arrow, they would instantly vault themselves to the forefront of aviation technology. They would employ thousands, and the $ would be spent in the country, rather than paying someone else for a shitty product. They would have something to be proud of. Something that flies higher, and faster than anything else in the sky. (World records would drop like flies.) National pride would be at an all time high, and the world would have to take Canada seriously. The real question is, will the US let Canada built it knowing they have nothing that can touch it? 1955 all over again.

Will

[M-technik-3]

They are working on those WB's up in centennial CO!

That's where Eric with the UrQ works on the program. He retires in June but trying to get a job as GM in the system. They have not decided if he can still fly as a Mr.

Blackbird, about 15 years ago we flew a mission where I loaded a CF-105 on our jet and it's at WPAFB to go into the Cold War exhibit at some point. Was an easy load to put on the jet. Next jets are going to be drones...F22 and F35 are pushing the scope of what a pilot can take physically.