A dem's view of the welfare system=rant.

Oh man you sure know how to tell the old ladies off. What a serious badass.

[trashcop 80s 80s]

Taxes are still paying for the food reimbursement program for her day-care. It would be better if there were no reimbursements, and she charged more for her services to compensate, which would lead to the parents needing to work harder/smarter to make up the few extra dollars increase in day-care prices. It would work out better without relying on gov't aid, and increasing overall taxes. But once a program is put in place, it takes much more effort to remove it that it does to create it.
The more social programs we create and the more taxes we have to give up guarantees an increase in both. It never stops.

Notice a trend? The government has went from taxing and spending about 10% of our money to about 30% over the last 80 years. I personally believe every fucking social program should be abolished and let the private sector take care of itself. If you want a service, work to pay for it, or die bitches.

[Raxe]

I don't have any problem with the idea of welfare, I have a problem with the way it is being managed by the government. If they would do a background check on the applicant and be more careful with who is getting the money, it would be a great thing. I have known single mothers too who are in their early twenties, ready to start a family and had a bright future and suddenly their fiance ditches them, pregnant, and leaves them to fend on their own. Those people do need assistance. It's the drug dealers and frauds that don't.

Heck, it might be better if they privatize welfare.. government contract kind of deal.. maybe?

[Jand3rson]

I didn't really read this whole thread, but I can relate to DSP's initial post. My wife runs her own daycare business, and is part of a local network that gets her ALL KINDS of state grants and money for her business. This year, she got $1000 scott-free for purchasing anything she needs for her business, like yard toys, high chairs, dishes and utensils, anything that can be used for her business. And she gets another $1k this November. She also just recently enrolled her business in the USDA food program, which sends her a reimbursement check at the end of every month for all the food she feeds the 4 kids during the month, based on an average-scale of costs. It pays for all the food she uses during the month, and even more sometimes, it's great for her.

Now we're by no means hurting for money, certainly not for food. And while we don't "need" the money she's getting for the kid's food, it certainly helps in a big way with our budget. And the money she's getting isn't welfare, it's not like it's being wasted on us when it could be going to starving families, it's funded by the state through the USDA, specifically for childcare services. Even all the big super-expensive daycare places use it. If they're going to pay for such a major aspect of your business, why wouldn't you do it?

But I see the same thing, we sometimes go to Food-4-Less (regular grocery store, you just bag it yourself) or the Grocery Outlet, and I see these families with 4-5 kids, all in nice clothes as well as the parents, buying $300 worth of food that they actually only end up paying $25 out of pocket for, using Oregon Trail (foodstamp) cards, and loading it all into a brand-new Yukon or something, and it drives me up the fucking wall. I make good money, and make too WAY too much for that program (I didn't apply, just checked it out for facts for this reply), not to mention WAY too much for the Oregon Health Plan (state funded low-income insurance), yet these people are somehow finding ways to clearly exploit a system intended for families that actually need it.

[Hallen]

It's easy to get mad at the people who abuse the system but I wonder if anyone ever asks 2 important questions- #1. Who profits from welfare? #2. Who really funds it?

The rich profit from it (because they own the industries that the poor consume from) so it isn't too often that you hear a rich person complain about the system. Secondly, after reading that passage about the beer drinkers, I would have to say that the rich funds most of the system also.

Those of us in the working middle class have a smaller take-home percentage every year but I'm sure that the 10% to 16% that the rich pay would have to be significantly more than the 26% to 34% that the working middle class pays. Apparently the rich are paying their "fair share" and then some.. even if they are getting a break.

If they really wanted to fix the welfare system, they would have done it already.

Hmmm, my perspective is a bit different.

1) Who profits from Welfare?
Mostly... the politicians. There are a lot of people out there on the dole and they all vote. Therefore, politicians will keep the welfare rolls full because those are guaranteed votes. Secondly, it is the nature of government to want to grow and control. Some of this is intended in a good way, but unfortunately, it usually does not turn out that way. Government does not shrink. Once something is put into law, and society starts to depend on it, like welfare, then there is job security for the people who work for the government, and the government has more control over you. Simple.

Secondly, a lot of people benefit from it because it assuages their guilt for having money when others don't. I personally can't see how they could possibly feel like that, unless it is daddy's money and not money they have earned themselves. But still, there are a lot of people out there who think that it is good that they are punished for making money lest they forget the less fortunate. They of course don't realize how the welfare system perpetuates the poor condition of a lot of people, but oh, well.

2) Everybody who pays taxes pays for it. Anybody who earns a buck here gets to pay their fair share of the welfare burden.

The poor consume very, very little. Why? Because they are poor. Nobody gets rich selling stuff to poor people (lets not get into illegal drug trafficking, that is a completely different argument). The rich don't complain about the system much because 1) They would be ridiculed and then made to pay more, and 2) Because it is not worth their time to worry about it because they can't change the system either. (see 1 above)

Think if you were allowed to keep all the tax money that goes to welfare type programs. Would you have more disposable money to spend? Would you buy more trick E30 parts for your car? Would that allow more people to earn money selling E30 parts? Would that drive the need for more people to make said parts? Would there then be fewer poor people? Well, in theory yes, there would be fewer poor people. However, unfortunately, a good number of poor people are poor because they are either lazy, stupid, or both. But the point is, you money is being taken from you and given to somebody who probably does not deserve to have it. My argument is that your money is better off with you and it would probably do more good that way too. More rich people means more money given to charities, more "foundations" left after they are dead, etc, etc. It's all good. Another way of looking at it is if you kept all that money and saved every dime of it, by the time you retire, do you really think you would need social security, medicare and medicaid or any money from the government? Probably not. That concept scares a lot of politicians and government workers.

And lastly, the rich don't get a break. They do have ways of "hiding" money and other trick things that do help to reduce their tax burdens, but one of the biggest things they do to reduce their tax burden is to give to charity. So in the end, maybe they are paying 16% of their earnings, but they have given more than that in charity and taxes. Just look at F1 drivers and other European sports starts, they all live in Monaco. Why? Because they can keep more of the money they have earned that way. If they keep living in Europe, they would lose a huge percentage of their income so they choose to move. Do you really want the "rich" here to do he same thing? And don't forget, Corporations are considered an "entity" like a person when it comes to taxes. Corporations make big money and they pay huge taxes and they pay we working guys a lot of money too. "The rich" in this country is really misunderstood by most of the "poor". They don't want the poor to stay poor. That's silly. Scarce resources are always a problem, but keeping poor people poor does not grant the rich more money. In fact, it probably gets them less money in the long run.

[brandondan1]

Sure, stricter rules need to be set in place when people are out driving new BMWs yet using food stamps at the market, but I don't see how some of you are totally against welfare. As said earlier, it promotes kindness in our society when we help out the less fortunate, and really helps a lot of people to become productive in society (like those who can't afford college without financial aid).

I hear that government shouldn't be "forcing" us to give money, but as some of the convservatives have said "the rich are some of the stingiest people, they don't 'waste' money etc." What makes you think that they would give money to a cause they deem unworthy (like giving to a single mother who "could" spend it on cigarettes.)

Why should schools in rich areas that have more money they can ever dream of, use it to build a football stadium better than an NFL team's, when there are poor schools who don't have up to date textbooks etc, that will only continue the cycle of being uneducated, poor, etc?

People will always find a way to abuse ANY system, whether you're letting big business run rampant or enforcing social policies. It's just human nature. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who benefit from them in a legitimate way.

[2Big4a3Series]

when you see so many people just doing the minimum they can to get by and doing the most they can for personal satisfaction it pisses me off

Yeah, but in the long run I would have to say that I am glad that I am me and not one of them. Sure they have nicer cars, nicer clothes, and can buy more groceries but when I consider where they live and the kind of people that they have to deal with on a daily basis, I wouldn't trade places with them for anything in the world.

It's tough to pay the premiums for medical insurance but I welcome that (and being able to choose my doctor) in lieu of Medicaid where I have to go to some nasty gov't sponsored clinic where I would be forced to take whatever treatment they decide to give me. It's tough to make rent/mortgage payments but I'll do it to live in a safe community instead of living in a Section 8 property around neighbors who wait for me to leave so they can steal my stuff.

It looks like they are having a great time with the fancy cars and clothes and the endless supply of expensive groceries, but they can keep it. All of it is short lived and those of us who work for a living will always have a better quality of life as a result of it. People who have their priorities mixed up end up handing out happy face stickers at Walmart in their later years while the rest of us will retire rather comfortably.

[Julien]

What is even worse is when someone sells you a panel that is described as good condition... and then via carbondating you find that it was damaged long before arrival. Fuck, it was already in bad shape when it left germany.

Now that is some welfare bullshit.

[chrisesteschiro]

If everyone paid the same percentage of taxes then everyone would appreciate what they have more. Our a country punishes sacrificing and working hard. I sacrifice going to school for 8 years while I look around and see everyone else having a great time. Then when I get out I am in so much debt that I cant imagine just to have a greater percentage of my money going to people who set back and play around. I am not saying that some people dont need a helping hand but when you see so many people just doing the minimum they can to get by and doing the most they can for personal satisfaction it pisses me off. After the breakdown some people are paying half of what they make in total taxes to keep people up who pay no taxes.

Cliff notes: Alot of people dont have money because they were born that way. They saved and worked their asses off. While some people were goofing around in school they were working. While some people are out partying some people are working. Then when you finally make it you give the money back to the people who laughed at you for working so hard.


END RANT

[2Big4a3Series]

It's easy to get mad at the people who abuse the system but I wonder if anyone ever asks 2 important questions- #1. Who profits from welfare? #2. Who really funds it?

The rich profit from it (because they own the industries that the poor consume from) so it isn't too often that you hear a rich person complain about the system. Secondly, after reading that passage about the beer drinkers, I would have to say that the rich funds most of the system also.

Those of us in the working middle class have a smaller take-home percentage every year but I'm sure that the 10% to 16% that the rich pay would have to be significantly more than the 26% to 34% that the working middle class pays. Apparently the rich are paying their "fair share" and then some.. even if they are getting a break.

If they really wanted to fix the welfare system, they would have done it already.

[eric (^__^)]

I think the concept of the rich is clouded by MTV. I can't find the link but many millionaires drive mid-price American SUVs, not Range Rovers or MB. Some live to show off their wealth, or at least their children do... but why dump money to flaunt it when it could be put to better use. That behavior is what keeps the lower class that want to pretend their not, in the lower class.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...ep.aspx?page=1

Totally. The lower class has no positive role model. The rich will fight like hell to maintain the gulf between their lifestyle and the bottom of the totem pole. I think this defines our country, and change is going to take more than taxing the rich more to make the poor feel better.

America is a social clusterfuck, from where I sit. I think it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The economy WILL level out, and relieve some stress, but things are just getting bad.

[eric (^__^)]

In fact, they might start drinking overseas
where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

You mean, where the beer is cheaper anyway?

The details we're missing here include exactly how many "number 10's" went overseas anyway, even though they just had two terms of fiscal "conservatism." Don't get me wrong, I can see the numbers just fine, I just like to look at the big picture. Even out the taxes, let capitalism have its day, but don't go believing that the rich don't want to get richer.

[rwh11385]

Some would say, how do you think they got to the point not to have to shop there? A lot of the rich are the most stingiest/thriftiest people I have ever met.


just get there before they do, it is first come first served.

I think the concept of the rich is clouded by MTV. I can't find the link but many millionaires drive mid-price American SUVs, not Range Rovers or MB. Some live to show off their wealth, or at least their children do... but why dump money to flaunt it when it could be put to better use. That behavior is what keeps the lower class that want to pretend their not, in the lower class.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveMoney/10SecretsThatMillionairesKeep.aspx?page=1

2. "I shop at Wal-Mart."

Millionaires may not buy the 99-cent paper towels, but they know what it is to be frugal. About 80% say they spend with a middle-class mind-set, according to a 2007 survey of high-net-worth individuals, published by American Express and the Harrison Group. That means buying luxury items on sale, hunting for bargains and even clipping coupons.

...

In fact, most millionaires come from middle-class households, and roughly 70% have been wealthy for less than 15 years, according to the AmEx-Harrison survey. That said, there are plenty of millionaires who never check a price tag.

[apexede30]

Clever little article, albeit slightly off the point. The poor ones are getting free beer. Lucky bastards. They need a beerstamp system soon.

[Pinepig]

I see a whole bunch of fiscal conservatives being born in this thread.:p