The final "Who are you going to vote for" poll

[h0lmes]

The thing I keep noticing about the conservative arguments is that they have absolutely no evidence, facts or sources to back them up. It's all just theory and 'predictions', based in the same anti-left rhetoric that's been around since the 50s.

You definition of "socialism" is sadly skewed. Socialism is an entire form of government, not just a tax cut. Obama isn't going to turn the US socialist anymore than McCain is going to turn it fascist. But answer me this: If "socialism" (by your definition) is really so bad, why is all of Europe using it to great success? Why do they have higher net incomes, higher standards of living and longer life expectancies? Why is their economic downturn less severe than ours?

Truth be told, you don't know anything about socialism or political theory. You're just spouting off all of the same anti-socialist stuff that was invented back in the 50s during the Red Scare.

If Obama is really a socialist, why would he be endorsed by Warren Buffet and Ben Bernanke, two of the most prominent economic minds of the modern day? Explain that to me. Why would they endorse a "socialist"?

If you can find some evidence that Obama is actually going to hurt the economy, then please, provide it. Ragged has managed to provide a lot of hard evidence supporting his point of view, so where's yours? Endlessly repeating the same tired, worn-out theories over and over with zero foundation to back them up makes you look like an uninformed, blind follower of a long disproved economic model.



Probably the most retarded thing I've ever heard, period. It's no more of a solution than, "throw money at it, throw money at it, throw money at it!"

Their opinion of socialism is based on a stereotype that was created 50 years ago for the Cold War.

[DarkWing6]

OK, so if I don't call it socialism will you explain to me why "spreading the wealth" will ecourage people to work hard?

[Collin]

America has a socialist party, Obama is not their candidate.

What is the $700 billion bail out, if not socialism?


Anyone watch It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia this week?
Charlie: "Since when do we have to pay for health care?"
Mac: "Ya isn't the government supposed to pay for this shit?"
Charlie: "What are we living in some kind'a socialist country?"
Mac: "I don't pay firemen to put out fires!"

[Jonny Cash]

This isn't economic hell. Things are a bit tighter becasue we are all being forced to live within the means that we actually have. The market is correcting itself and we need to too.

What "market" are you talking about?

Dont beleive everything you read on the internet/See on TV.

Id love to know how old some of you guys are. Better yet, who's teaching you this stuff.

[Vedubin01]

It was not until Joe the plumber, did America hear Obama openly admit that he was for spread the wealth. A socialist idea. Back in 2001 he made these same statements. I think when his transcripts are released and his thesis papers are opened up you will find that his thinking is more along the lines of the Marxist and Socialist ideas. The people that he associates himself with are influences. Just like you are influenced by people here on R3v. The old saying you are what you eat or you are who you associate yourself with is true. Obama is someone new that not much is known. The more you find the more it leans to these thoughts of Socialist and Marxist views.

He has proven if your not for him, his media campaign will cut your balls. You will be silenced and disguarded as a right wing nut tied to the BUSH administration.

I do not understand how many will shut off and not look into the substanence of this political views, ideas and promisses! It truly amazes me that the radical left that wants peace and love is more violent than their right winged counter part.

[Collin]

It was not until Joe the plumber, did America hear Obama openly admit that he was for spread the wealth. A socialist idea. Back in 2001 he made these same statements. I think when his transcripts are released and his thesis papers are opened up you will find that his thinking is more along the lines of the Marxist and Socialist ideas. The people that he associates himself with are influences. Just like you are influenced by people here on R3v. The old saying you are what you eat or you are who you associate yourself with is true. Obama is someone new that not much is known. The more you find the more it leans to these thoughts of Socialist and Marxist views.

He has proven if your not for him, his media campaign will cut your balls. You will be silenced and disguarded as a right wing nut tied to the BUSH administration.

I do not understand how many will shut off and not look into the substanence of this political views, ideas and promisses! It truly amazes me that the radical left that wants peace and love is more violent than their right winged counter part.

So what was the bailout that McCain voted for? I didn't realize Obama was running as the socialist candidate for president.

I am totally swayed by the people around me which is why I now completely agree with you about everything. My neighbor is a crackhead, I must smoke crack too. My current professor is a republican, I must be a republican too. My dad is a lawyer, and by proxy I can now practice law. My mom drives a school bus, so I must have a CDL too. My fiance enjoys putting on makeup, so I must be a drag queen. My best friend is italian, so I must be too. Oh my grandma loves the Lawrence Welk show, now so do I.

Guilt by association is bullshit.

[h0lmes]

OK, so if I don't call it socialism will you explain to me why "spreading the wealth" will ecourage people to work hard?

Obama doesn't want to take every American dollar then distribute it evenly, that is Socialism. He wants to take a little more from the top and send it down the ladder a bit. There are a lot of people that want to succeed but can't get ahead at all. Whether it be health care, child care, etc. they just don't have the money to do so. The idea is that a small boost will allow them to do so. You talk about selfishness and wanting to better the country. Don't you think the country would be better if everybody could actually afford health care, etc?

The truth is that the upper class is getting smaller while simultaneously accumulating a higher percentage of the wealth. The lower class is getting larger while their share of the wealth is getting smaller. Like I said before, ExxonMobile just recorded the highest profit of any company ever, yet the other 99% of us are hurting more than ever.

It is about time that we stopped being slaves to big business and stood up for our share of the pie.

[Vedubin01]

holmes,

no argument here but even in socialist countries or ideas, there will still be classes. Just the classes will be more defined. I really don’t understand how people say they cant get ahead if they are on the bottom. Obama's aunt, the one in the news, living off government assistance still donated $240 to Obama's campaign. That’s well more than enough to incorporate a business. Though they are in a disadvantage, if your person of color, woman or anything other than a single white male. There are programs out there that will give you grant money to get something going. It takes thinking and ideas. You must be a dreamer and a problem solver. If you got any of those traits, know how to balance a budget, you might have a chance to move up the social ladder. .

Its not easy but that’s what sets successful owners apart from mindless workers

[h0lmes]

holmes,

no argument here but even in socialist countries or ideas, there will still be classes. Just the classes will be more defined. I really don’t understand how people say they cant get ahead if they are on the bottom. Obama's aunt, the one in the news, living off government assistance still donated $240 to Obama's campaign. That’s well more than enough to incorporate a business. Though they are in a disadvantage, if your person of color, woman or anything other than a single white male. There are programs out there that will give you grant money to get something going. It takes thinking and ideas. You must be a dreamer and a problem solver. If you got any of those traits, know how to balance a budget, you might have a chance to move up the social ladder. .

Its not easy but that’s what sets successful owners apart from mindless workers

240 bucks may be enough for a business license but then you have to factor in a building of some sort, equipment, employees, etc. It takes a lot of Capital to start a business and big business is really making it hard for the little guy to get ahead. Do you think that someone is going to open a mom and pop department store across the street from a Wal-Mart? No, because Wal-Mart would bury them. So instead of trying to get ahead they just give in to working for one of these companies in an attempt to scrape up enough money to raise a family.

[Vedubin01]

240 bucks may be enough for a business license but then you have to factor in a building of some sort, equipment, employees, etc. It takes a lot of Capital to start a business and big business is really making it hard for the little guy to get ahead. Do you think that someone is going to open a mom and pop department store across the street from a Wal-Mart? No, because Wal-Mart would bury them. So instead of trying to get ahead they just give in to working for one of these companies in an attempt to scrape up enough money to raise a family.

You can work out of your house at first, and be your own employee. Does not have to be some department store, with the power of the internet you can be as big as you want it to be. If you cant afford internet, go to the library and its free there. I started a company that many of you guys today have or have had its product on your cars. We started that in a garage with only $500.

Again if you feel you need to go bigger and can read. There are tons of Government programs out there helping people start small business! In starting a business it does take a lot of sacrifice. Not eating right, pushing bills and taking a financial risk. But risk not want not!

[gwb72tii]

Obama doesn't want to take every American dollar then distribute it evenly, that is Socialism. He wants to take a little more from the top and send it down the ladder a bit. There are a lot of people that want to succeed but can't get ahead at all. Whether it be health care, child care, etc. they just don't have the money to do so. The idea is that a small boost will allow them to do so. You talk about selfishness and wanting to better the country. Don't you think the country would be better if everybody could actually afford health care, etc?

The truth is that the upper class is getting smaller while simultaneously accumulating a higher percentage of the wealth. The lower class is getting larger while their share of the wealth is getting smaller. Like I said before, ExxonMobile just recorded the highest profit of any company ever, yet the other 99% of us are hurting more than ever.

It is about time that we stopped being slaves to big business and stood up for our share of the pie.

taking a little from the top and send it down the ladder a bit. are you fucking kidding me?

go look up the def of communism, comrade. taking from paul, and giving it to peter, who does nothing to earn it and pays nothing into the "system" is communism. if you're for this type of "justice", you favor communism by definition.

the issue i have with o man's tax "cuts" are they aren't tax cuts at all. they're paid to people who pay no taxes at all. that is not a cut, it is redistribution of wealth.

this great country of ours was founded explicitly on the foundation of equal opportunity, that all men are created equal. that if you're a slovak, chinese, laotian or italian your nationality it does not preclude you from attaining your dreams.

o man turns this foundation on its head by trying to legislate equal outcomes regardless of input and effort. this is a major tenant of socialism.

go look at europe. they have higher unemployment, less opportunity, much slower economic growth, and are now revamping their govt's to be more like ours. at a time we're trying to become more like them. they already know single payer govt healthcare doesn't work, and by definition means rationing of health care access. why the hell are we headed down their failed paths? we know how to do it better? ever hear of Katrina anyone? europe will go through a much deeper and longer recession than us also. the old saying that when the usa catches a cold the world catches the flu is still true.

makes no sense

here's a question h0lmes. name the largest taxpayer in the world.

[h0lmes]

go look up the def of communism, comrade. taking from paul, and giving it to peter, who does nothing to earn it and pays nothing into the "system" is communism. if you're for this type of "justice", you favor communism by definition.

That is absolutely not the definition of communism. Communism is shared ownership of the means of production. It simply means that everybody gets an equal share of the pie. This is in direct contrast to Capitalism where an overwhelming minority hold an overwhelming majority of wealth. This idea that commies are going to take all your money and give it to some drug dealing illegal immigrant is completely baseless and inconsistent with what communism really is. For some reason people fear communism because of the Cold War stereotype. The truth is that although the Soviet Union started as a communist state it quickly turned into a totalitarian dictatorship because of greedy, power mongering, sociopaths. That is where your fear comes from. Communism and thus Socialism really are wonderful ideas. I suggest you do a bit more research.

[lowlightbw]

^true^

[Ral]

except for the fact that it provides little to no incentive to work hard. And takes more money from those that do earn it.

[h0lmes]

except for the fact that it provides little to no incentive to work hard. And takes more money from those that do earn it.

I don't disagree with the incentive part but there are ways around that such as distributing wealth only to those that work. It also does not take money from those that earn it. You can't say money was taken when it was never actually yours in the first place.