Auto Bailout Bill: Dead

[Jand3rson]

Josh, do you really want more competition on the unskilled & semi-skilled job market front?

-Charlie

We don't have any auto manufacturing plants here. Not to mention that none of them are in the field I work in.

Besides, what difference does it make what I think, anyway? It's been said earlier, they're going to get it, regardless.

[kylebes1]

all i can say on the subject is that i am glad it isn't me trying to figure this mess out.

qfmft

[StereoInstaller1]

All I can say on the subject is that I am glad it isn't me trying to figure this mess out.

[Charlie]

Do you wonder what people who are within 10 years of retirement age are going to do? They most likely only planned for retirement with a pension in mind... tax payers are not nearly as screwed as they are

Or they planned with their 401k which has seen all it its value accumulated over the past 11-12 years completely wiped out.

It's ugly.

-Charlie

[kylebes1]

Do you wonder what people who are within 10 years of retirement age are going to do? They most likely only planned for retirement with a pension in mind... tax payers are not nearly as screwed as they are

[hugh jass]

Yea, this isn't really news. It's not the current workers who are killing the Big 3, it's the fathers & Grandfathers.

This isn't going to just be a case of "fuck you UAW, take a pay cut!", this is going to be "fuck you grandpa, no more pension", people can't seem to understand that.

-Charlie

If you read a lot of the posts in this thread, and every other thread that mentions unions or UAW, that is the perception. Everyone thinks that UAW assembly line workers all make $70 an hour. They fail to realize that its more complex than that.
You can't just axe the pensions without sending 10s of thousands of retired workers into a financial tailspin.

[Dave]

They will jettison the pensions in Chapter 11 like the airlines did.

What does that mean? Well, we pay them via PBGC. (Subject to caps)

I do not see how they can be viable without doing that.

[Charlie]

found this over at jalopnik:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i6nLJ8iXSpohCBnQU2KERTaw_VYgD950S0A84

its not really the wages that are killing the automakers, its the pensions. the legacy costs for the big 3 are outrageous and from an era that is loooong gone.

Yea, this isn't really news. It's not the current workers who are killing the Big 3, it's the fathers & Grandfathers.

This isn't going to just be a case of "fuck you UAW, take a pay cut!", this is going to be "fuck you grandpa, no more pension", people can't seem to understand that.

-Charlie

[hugh jass]

found this over at jalopnik:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i6nLJ8iXSpohCBnQU2KERTaw_VYgD950S0A84

its not really the wages that are killing the automakers, its the pensions. the legacy costs for the big 3 are outrageous and from an era that is loooong gone.

[kylebes1]

I think the worst part of the auto bailout is that we are damned either way. If we pay it up front with a bail out the companies can coast into failure. If we don't we pay over time for them to fail immediately.

There is no one left to purchase their products. The population that has some shadow of justification for buying a truck or SUV are all unemployed (construction workers).

I am once again glad to be broke already.

[Charlie]

[quote=Mr. Anderson;1308721]Yeah, GM already tried that bit about 10 years ago, and it um... didn't go well.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokille...riccar/[/quote]

The idiots that made that movie fail to grasp one key concept. The EV1 was built solely as a response to California's mandate in the late 90's that all auto manufacturers who sell vehicles in Calfornia have to have 2% of their total sales comprised of electric vehicles. GM built the EV1 to meet that. All other manufacturers, including Toyota and Honda balked at the mandate, and eventually california rescinded it, and the need for the EV1 went away. GM was the only company that ever even built the car.

-Charlie

[Charlie]

We have one of those cars at school (one of the last few in existence). It has a shitty interior and looks ugly, but functionally its a great car for around town.

If getting 15 miles on a charge is considered "great functionality". We also had one at OSU at the FSAE team, drove it a few times. The EV1 was never a viable production vehicle. My friend's dad was a GM lobbyist back when I was in high school, so they got a lot of pre-production vehicles to test, including a number of pre-EV1 electric cars. They all had about a 40 mile "ideal" range, which dropped in half when you turned on the AC or the radio. Basically they have the functionality of a golf cart.

-Charlie

[backtrail69]

Yeah, GM already tried that bit about 10 years ago, and it um... didn't go well.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

We have one of those cars at school (one of the last few in existence). It has a shitty interior and looks ugly, but functionally its a great car for around town.

[Charlie]

Saw a TV show that tested it at 12.5l/100km 23 miles/gal) on the highway at steady speed while my 15 years old 250,000 miles 525 Tourin,g which weight close to two tons, does 9.2l/100 km on a tired motor. Sure, for its size, the Flex's mileage is not that bad, but is the size really needed, or even an excuse. When can we get smaller comfy vehicule that run on a more frugal diet of fuel, without going to the heavier electric vehicule, which obviously pollute just as much as electricity is made from using oil, coal, or uranium... but in another state.

I'd be happy to see Honda engines everywhere. 42mpg cars is what we need. Honda'S Fit over GM's Flex.

Psst, Ford, not GM.

Your ignorance of the US auto market is also showing. Americans don't want small cars. They want large interior areas, high seating positions and the ability to bulldoze other traffic.

The Flex isn't a replacement for a Honda Fit, it's a replacement for the Expedition/Suburbans.

-Charlie

[Massive Lee]

The Flex actually gets pretty good gas mileage for a vehicle of its size
-Charlie

Saw a TV show that tested it at 12.5l/100km 23 miles/gal) on the highway at steady speed while my 15 years old 250,000 miles 525 Tourin,g which weight close to two tons, does 9.2l/100 km on a tired motor. Sure, for its size, the Flex's mileage is not that bad, but is the size really needed, or even an excuse. When can we get smaller comfy vehicule that run on a more frugal diet of fuel, without going to the heavier electric vehicule, which obviously pollute just as much as electricity is made from using oil, coal, or uranium... but in another state.

I'd be happy to see Honda engines everywhere. 42mpg cars is what we need. Honda'S Fit over GM's Flex.