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    Originally posted by z31maniac View Post
    No one is denying your right to own arms or protect yourself. Stand your ground laws have become more powerful over the decades in regards to the person "standing their ground."

    Obama didn't take your guns, etc, etc.
    Stand your ground and castle doctrine is often confused.

    As a whole states are infringing on 2a. Some laws like pistol vs sbr vs rifle are as a whole are silly. Short barrelled shotgun? I can't have more than 10 rounds in a magazine? All infringing. Btw, CA had 18% more gun crime this year with our even stricter gun laws.

    Comment


      Originally posted by R3Z3N View Post
      Stand your ground and castle doctrine is often confused.

      As a whole states are infringing on 2a. Some laws like pistol vs sbr vs rifle are as a whole are silly. Short barrelled shotgun? I can't have more than 10 rounds in a magazine? All infringing. Btw, CA had 18% more gun crime this year with our even stricter gun laws.
      Since you like to use a case study to make a generalization, I'll go ahead and do the same.

      When Congresswoman Gabby Gifford was shot, do you know when they were able to take down the shooter? When his first magazine was empty and he was attempting to load another. Imagine how much more damage he could have done if he had 7 or 9 more in the same magazine?

      Isn't cool what you can "prove" when you cherry pick data?


      If you can't hit your theoretical close range target with 10 rounds, you aren't well trained enough to be discharging a weapon in public to begin with. And before you give me the "under duress" argument, so are LEOs and they train far more regularly at the range, and for these types of situations and still have abysmal shot:hit ratios.
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      Comment


        Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
        Seriously your going to trot out a Bloomberg funded anything pertaining to firearms as unbiased.... wtf are you smoking to think that is unbiased
        I never said it was unbiased, I listed where it came from because I knew someone would bring it up, the point was I wasn't trying to hide where the article came from. All I ask is for people to look at the data.

        How about more gun deaths this year than any other on record? Gun deaths outpaced vehicular deaths once again.

        As for the second amendment, explain how laws regulating guns are infringing upon the second amendment.

        "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

        Are you part of a well-regulated militia? Do those even exist anymore?

        Also, it doesn't say anything about unlimited right to own every kind of weapon possible. If you believe it does then I supposed you'd be cool with your neighbors owning nuclear weapons, ya know, for home security...

        I'm not arguing against gun ownership, I simply do not want to have to guess who has a gun and who doesn't when I'm riding on a train or subway. I'd prefer that no one has a gun and police are the ones that deal with the criminals.

        Comment


          Originally posted by mbonder View Post
          How about more gun deaths this year than any other on record? Gun deaths outpaced vehicular deaths once again.

          As for the second amendment, explain how laws regulating guns are infringing upon the second amendment.

          "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

          Are you part of a well-regulated militia? Do those even exist anymore?

          Also, it doesn't say anything about unlimited right to own every kind of weapon possible. If you believe it does then I supposed you'd be cool with your neighbors owning nuclear weapons, ya know, for home security...

          I'm not arguing against gun ownership, I simply do not want to have to guess who has a gun and who doesn't when I'm riding on a train or subway. I'd prefer that no one has a gun and police are the ones that deal with the criminals.
          Love that with CDC records, suicide by gun is considered gun death along with suicide. If you want violence based that number changes drastically. THen also remove accidental and it changes again. But actual violence based crime? Much lower than that number. ALso how about the potential 3 million saved by carriers. That mean nothing. An armed society is a polite society. Remove grandmas potential to have a means of protection just as lethal as a criminal, and she will be a statistic.

          Either way, every citizen may be part of the well regulated militia to keep the government in check. I don't care who has a gun as long as I have one. Most are law abiding citizens. Don't let the wolf rule the sheep. Let the sheep protect themselves from the sheep.

          Again, relying on the state to protect you is fruitless. It takes seconds to to defend or be a statistic. Minutes for the state to come to your rescue if even that short.

          Comment


            Originally posted by z31maniac View Post
            Since you like to use a case study to make a generalization, I'll go ahead and do the same.

            When Congresswoman Gabby Gifford was shot, do you know when they were able to take down the shooter? When his first magazine was empty and he was attempting to load another. Imagine how much more damage he could have done if he had 7 or 9 more in the same magazine?

            Isn't cool what you can "prove" when you cherry pick data?


            If you can't hit your theoretical close range target with 10 rounds, you aren't well trained enough to be discharging a weapon in public to begin with. And before you give me the "under duress" argument, so are LEOs and they train far more regularly at the range, and for these types of situations and still have abysmal shot:hit ratios.
            Most LEO don't train enough. The budget for 1K+ rounds/mo is not there.

            Imagine if those around here were also armed. Reminder he was a Democrat shooting her. Would the shooter have tried? He sure would not have lasted as long should those around been armed instead of relying on someone else to protect them. Casualties happen more often when only the criminal is armed and those allowed to by the controlling class.

            Regardless, it IS infringing. Most mass murders are with weapons legal to the non-felon. Even if it was with illegal weapons, DO NOT INFRINGE ON THE RIGHT OF THE NON-FELON. Doing so only invites the criminal to have the upper hand. Laws prevent NOTHING. They only allow to prosecute after the law has been broken. Silly statists.

            Either way meh

            It IS the duty of the people to maintain our rights. When the government takes too many away, we are called to arms.

            From a Columbine student who was shot:

            Mr. President,

            As a student who was shot and wounded during the Columbine massacre, I have a few thoughts on the current gun debate. In regards to your gun control initiatives.

            Universal Background Checks

            First, a universal background check will have many devastating effects. It will arguably have the opposite impact of what you propose. If adopted, criminals will know that they can not pass a background check legally, so they will resort to other avenues. With the conditions being set by this initiative, it will create a large black market for weapons and will support more criminal activity and funnel additional money into the hands of thugs, criminals, and people who will do harm to American citizens.

            Second, universal background checks will create a huge bureaucracy that will cost an enormous amount of tax payers dollars and will straddle us with more debt. We cannot afford it now, let alone create another function of government that will have a huge monthly bill attached to it.

            Third, is a universal background check system possible without universal gun registration? If so, please define it for us. Universal registration can easily be used for universal confiscation. I am not at all implying that you, sir, would try such a measure, but we do need to think about our actions through the lens of time.

            It is not impossible to think that a tyrant, to the likes of Mao, Castro, Che, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and others, could possibly rise to power in America. It could be five, ten, twenty, or one hundred years from now — but future generations have the natural right to protect themselves from tyrannical government just as much as we currently do. It is safe to assume that this liberty that our forefathers secured has been a thorn in the side of would-be tyrants ever since the Second Amendment was adopted.

            Ban on Military-Style Assault Weapons

            The evidence is very clear pertaining to the inadequacies of the assault weapons ban. It had little to no effect when it was in place from 1994 until 2004. It was during this time that I personally witnessed two fellow students murder twelve of my classmates and one teacher. The assault weapons ban did not deter these two murderers, nor did the other thirty-something laws that they broke.

            Gun ownership is at an all time high. And although tragedies like Columbine and Newtown are exploited by ideologues and special-interest lobbying groups, crime is at an all time low. The people have spoken. Gun store shelves have been emptied. Gun shows are breaking attendance records. Gun manufacturers are sold out and back ordered. Shortages on ammo and firearms are countrywide. The American people have spoken and are telling you that our Second Amendment shall not be infringed.

            10-Round Limit for Magazines

            Virginia Tech was the site of the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history. Seung-Hui Cho used two of the smallest caliber hand guns manufactured and a handful of ten round magazines. There are no substantial facts that prove that limited magazines would make any difference at all.
            Second, this is just another law that endangers law-abiding citizens. I’ve heard you ask, “why does someone need 30 bullets to kill a deer?”

            Let me ask you this: Why would you prefer criminals to have the ability to out-gun law-abiding citizens? Under this policy, criminals will still have their 30-round magazines, but the average American will not. Whose side are you on?

            Lastly, when did they government get into the business of regulating “needs?” This is yet another example of government overreaching and straying from its intended purpose.

            Selling to Criminals

            Mr. President, these are your words: “And finally, Congress needs to help, rather than hinder, law enforcement as it does its job. We should get tougher on people who buy guns with the express purpose of turning around and selling them to criminals. And we should severely punish anybody who helps them do this.”

            Why don’t we start with Eric Holder and thoroughly investigate the Fast and Furious program?

            Furthermore, the vast majority of these mass murderers bought their weapons legally and jumped through all the hoops — because they were determined to murder. Adding more hoops and red tape will not stop these types of people. It doesn’t now — so what makes you think it will in the future? Criminals who cannot buy guns legally just resort to the black market.

            Criminals and murderers will always find a way.

            Critical Examination

            Mr. President, in theory, your initiatives and proposals sound warm and fuzzy — but in reality they are far from what we need. Your initiatives seem to punish law-abiding American citizens and enable the murderers, thugs, and other lowlifes who wish to do harm to others.

            Let me be clear: These ideas are the worst possible initiatives if you seriously care about saving lives and also upholding your oath of office. There is no dictate, law, or regulation that will stop bad things from happening — and you know that. Yet you continue to push the rhetoric. Why?

            You said, “If we can save just one person it is worth it.” Well here are a few ideas that will save more that one individual:

            First, forget all of your current initiatives and 23 purposed executive orders. They will do nothing more than impede law-abiding citizens and breach the intent of the Constitution. Each initiative steals freedom, grants more power to an already-overreaching government, and empowers and enables criminals to run amok.

            Second, press Congress to repeal the “Gun Free Zone Act.” Don’t allow America’s teachers and students to be endangered one-day more. These parents and teachers have the natural right to defend themselves and not be looked at as criminals. There is no reason teachers must disarm themselves to perform their jobs. There is also no reason a parent or volunteer should be disarmed when they cross the school line.

            This is your chance to correct history and restore liberty. This simple act of restoring freedom will deter would-be murderers and for those who try, they will be met with resistance.

            Mr. President, do the right thing, restore freedom, and save lives. Show the American people that you stand with them and not with thugs and criminals.

            Respectfully,

            Severely Concerned Citizen, Evan M. Todd
            Last edited by R3Z3N; 12-13-2018, 02:35 PM.

            Comment


              Originally posted by R3Z3N View Post
              Enter a military base without authorization? I expect to be dead. Enter many other countries without proper papers or legality, I can expect to be executed, and that is their moral right to protect themselves.
              No, you're just out to lunch. There are no domestic defense establishments where entry will result in immediate death, any place that would have you getting shot merely for being present is already secured many times over by subsequently less secured areas, even then all lethal force requires ROE and it ain't "shoot em if ya see them". Same goes for countries, those places don't exist.

              You're nuts.
              Last edited by cale; 12-13-2018, 03:17 PM.

              Comment


                You sir, need more exposure. Quiet of my few Ukranian friends escaped with nothing, even from their own country. Another from Africa had to walk among the bodies of his family and friends, avoiding guards crossing borders. Several of their friends ended up dead in the prisons. Ended up in S America and getting into the US for college. Another Armenian friend was still dealing with the genocide they had and the effect it hand on their families. All had to cross borders to escape, all were in fear of their lives. Luckily once out many boarders were open because other than their country, the others were not in war.

                All of these friends agree on one thing, 2A protects ALL other rights.

                Without proper fear of entry, even a border wall is useless. We have no responsibility to others outside our country, or to those here illegally.

                Comment


                  I would say all these quotes come from smarter and more disciplined minds than those in this country:

                  "A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
                  - George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

                  "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
                  - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

                  "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
                  - Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

                  "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
                  - Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

                  "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
                  - Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

                  "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

                  "The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
                  - Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

                  "On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
                  - Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

                  "I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
                  - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

                  “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
                  - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

                  "To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."
                  - George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

                  "I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
                  - George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

                  "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
                  - Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

                  "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
                  - James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

                  "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
                  - James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

                  "...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
                  - James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

                  "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                  - William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

                  “A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
                  - Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

                  "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
                  - Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

                  "This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
                  - St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

                  "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves."
                  - Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

                  "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
                  - Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

                  "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
                  - Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

                  "What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
                  - Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

                  "For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
                  - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787

                  "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
                  - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

                  "[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
                  - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

                  "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
                  - Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by R3Z3N View Post
                    You sir, need more exposure. Quiet of my few Ukranian friends escaped with nothing, even from their own country. Another from Africa had to walk among the bodies of his family and friends, avoiding guards crossing borders. Several of their friends ended up dead in the prisons. Ended up in S America and getting into the US for college. Another Armenian friend was still dealing with the genocide they had and the effect it hand on their families. All had to cross borders to escape, all were in fear of their lives. Luckily once out many boarders were open because other than their country, the others were not in war.

                    All of these friends agree on one thing, 2A protects ALL other rights.

                    Without proper fear of entry, even a border wall is useless. We have no responsibility to others outside our country, or to those here illegally.
                    I'm not really sure the point of this statement above, however, you do realize that you just admitted that people who are in danger needed to be able to cross borders to gain security and freedom and that they were saved by the reality that countries not at war didn't completely close their borders. Your friends were saved by illegally crossing borders.

                    Once again, I'm not saying that people can't own guns, but using the Founding Fathers and other associated historical individuals to justify a modern condition is fairly asinine. You realize that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson couldn't foresee a time when planes would fly through the air and drop bombs without anyone even sitting in the plane, right?

                    The White House didn't even exist when these guys were living, let alone electricity, plumbing, much of the medical field. These guys owned slaves, believed that people were property. So if we are going to use their words, let's use all of them and talk about humans as property and ensuring the superiority of the white race.

                    Seriously, don't pick and choose the statements that suit your narrative, because it does a disservice to historical context. They were great men, but they also recognized that they were imperfect and so was the American condition. Times change, they're gone, we're here, and it's up to us to figure out how to stop people from dying needlessly. It's my belief that concealed carry will only lead to more deaths, not fewer. Prove me wrong.

                    Comment


                      They agreed that crossing borders were dangerous, yet still agree we need to protect our borders with lethal force as well. They also agree that a disarmed populous leads to a dangerous state, and citizens NEED to be armed from both threats. They lived and died to get here and they see the same socialist agenda happening and are worried the last best country for freedom has lost it to the very Democrats they loathe.

                      Btw statistically concealed carry citizens are more law abiding than just about any other citizen because they understand the laws they had to agree to carry. There are potentially over 3 million violent crimes prevented due to law abiding citizens protecting themselves with the gun.

                      Again with our constitution, if the government takes away a right, it is our duty to get it back.
                      Last edited by R3Z3N; 12-13-2018, 09:51 PM.

                      Comment


                        R3Z3N: my friends crossed borders illegally to get away from a dangerous place
                        Also R3Z3N: shoot everyone that crosses borders or breaks the law
                        Also R3Z3N: shoot the government to get your rights back
                        Also R3Z3N: gun owners are statistically more peaceful and safer than everyone else
                        cars beep boop

                        Comment


                          ^yeah, I'm on the cusp of adding another username to my P&R "contributes nothing of value, spouts same spiel over and over again" list.

                          I'm sure the people who have made the list could care less about being on said list, and I still see many of the posts that have been quoted by others fruitlessly arguing with them. But it's the only control I have... so I exert it when necessary for the "feels." ;)
                          "A good memory for quotes combined with a poor memory for attribution can lead to a false sense of originality."
                          -----------------------------------------
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                          87 325 Daily driver Sold
                          06 4.8is X5
                          06 Mtec X3
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                          90 325i Sold
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                          01 323ci Sold
                          92 325i Sold
                          83 528e Totaled
                          98 328i Sold
                          93 325i Sold

                          Comment


                            1) As stated they did
                            2) as stated 1 agrees to 2
                            3) Hence why 2A was created for the final checks and balances
                            4) Right! Awesome eh! Just as most are conservative, this is a last resort. Those protecting the country do not necessarily WANT to start breaking in doors, but it is what it took for both our liberty and civil war.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Schnitzer318is View Post
                              ^yeah, I'm on the cusp of adding another username to my P&R "contributes nothing of value, spouts same spiel over and over again" list.

                              I'm sure the people who have made the list could care less about being on said list, and I still see many of the posts that have been quoted by others fruitlessly arguing with them. But it's the only control I have... so I exert it when necessary for the "feels." ;)
                              Personally I find no value to muting anyone. If you ever want to S54 swap, unmute me so that you don't have to pay for MSS54 coding. I have seen no one else provide as comprehensive a list, or tools to do so. Hint, it's in the sig. Or download it now and mute me. BTW theres some "hidden" goodies you won't find anywhere else in that .zip since the MSS54 Comprehensive project is dead.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by mbonder View Post
                                I'm not arguing against gun ownership, I simply do not want to have to guess who has a gun and who doesn't when I'm riding on a train or subway. I'd prefer that no one has a gun and police are the ones that deal with the criminals.
                                This is exactly why personal gun ownership can serve as a deterrent. I personally have no issue with concealed carry precisely because it may give someone who is intent on being bad a reason to rethink what they want to do.

                                And I'd especially want others with guns able to respond.
                                “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
                                Sir Winston Churchill

                                Comment

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