Trump Thread 2.0

[R3Z3N]

^interesting. I had asked why you think an AR-15 is any different than any other rifle, and you do not want to give an answer, and you try to turn it around and state you will not answer unless I answer your question first which really is not relevant to what I had asked. Again, I had asked why you think an AR-15 demands more scrutiny, more laws than something say made of wood with a stripper clip.

I did answer, if it is a firearm or part thereof, it shall not be infringed. To go further, if we are at war on any turf domestic or not, I do not care what is used to protect the lives of the citizens when the government have overstepped their bounds. IE if anyones rights to life and liberty are infringed, and the citizens rise up to create a new government, I find no fault in them using "destructive devices." If you need to protect your freedoms, by all means use the tools at your disposal, find them, steal them, rise up and rid the country of tyrants.

[R3Z3N]

Good luck to the sheep in NZ that hand in their protection thinking the government has their back unlike Christchurch:

Mob Leader will not turn in illegal firearms after NZ Government steals personal property of it's citizens

[CarpHunter]

interesting. I had asked why you think an AR-15 is any different than any other rifle, and you do not want to give an answer, and you try to turn it around and state you will not answer unless I answer your question first which really is not relevant to what I had asked. Again, I had asked why you think an AR-15 demands more scrutiny, more laws than something say made of wood with a stripper clip.

Again, not an answer. I gave a very clear reason why I would not answer yours. I stand by that reason. We're trying to set a baseline for what you consider acceptable. It's so I can fully answer your question.

I did answer, if it is a firearm or part thereof, it shall not be infringed. To go further, if we are at war on any turf domestic or not, I do not care what is used to protect the lives of the citizens when the government have overstepped their bounds. IE if anyones rights to life and liberty are infringed, and the citizens rise up to create a new government, I find no fault in them using "destructive devices." If you need to protect your freedoms, by all means use the tools at your disposal, find them, steal them, rise up and rid the country of tyrants.

Again, not an answer to my question. Your giving a rough definition of a firearm. That definition covers small arms to artillery. Including any weapons platforms built around said "firearm". I.E. tanks, attack helicopters, battleships, ect..

I'm not sure if your purposely dodging the question, or don't understand. Either answer, admit your dodging, or say you don't understand the question. If you don't understand I will try to phrase it differently so you can.

[decay]

Again here we go with the law, thinking it did anything to stop crime. Rifles are used in few shootings, knives and fists cause much more damage combined. This is not about reducing "mass murder" or violence, this is solely muddying the waters convincing such as your self and others that desire security over freedom that such laws are effective. You sadly keep repeating yourself thinking the law or lack of law here is at fault. What is at fault is the morals of those committing the crime, not any tool they use. Keep pushing that narrative and showing your lack of understanding to why the 2A exists, and thinking that the world will be more peaceful if only we make law abiding citizens follow the law with an iron fist.

your lack of understanding of the concept of "force multiplier" and how it's applied in this context is one of the reasons you shouldn't be allowed to play with anything more than a .22LR.

[Mediumrarechicken]

remember how this was about bump stocks?

as someone who used the M4/AR15 platform for years, i can tell you that bump stocks are utter crap and you will have trouble staying on the paper with them, even if you already know how to shoot.

that weapon weighs 7 pounds (as the army issues it) and is too light to handle 5.56 at a cyclic rate. for fuck's sake, the SAW (M249) weighs more like 20 and that gun is still kinda jumpy for my tastes.

i mean, i guess that's my individual preference, but i'd rather put one shot on target than blow an entire magazine going area-effect.

try using a bump stock for hunting; you'll go home empty-handed.

home defense? you are aware a NATO round will penetrate not just your wall but your neighbors' as well? how much do you like your neighbors and their kids? get a mossberg and your first deterrent step is rack the slide. anyone with bad intent is going to know what chambering a 20ga round sounds like and at that point you have a moving target whose threat decreases with its distance from whatever door/window it came in.

you're a 2A supporter? fine. but seriously, find another hill to die on, this one has no value.

For someone that is a self appointed SME on the scary black rifles you really dont know what you're talking about. First I'll state that bump stocks never interested me, I knew one day that they would be banned, and they are just a toy to burn up ammo in a hurry.That being said, one of my ar's has a light weight bcg, adjustable gas block, muzzle brake and a 3gun trigger. The gun doesnt move up or side to side from recoil at all, my wife filmed me a while ago and if you muted it, removed the fire ball and the brass being ejected you would think I was just holding the gun up. I can shoot say 10 rounds as fast as I can and all the rounds would be on a 1x1ft target at 75 yards. My red dot never gets off the target, the reason my gun moves is because of the body tissue in my shoulder.

A 5.56 round "NATO" or otherwise is not going to go through my house and into my neighbors. A fast moving light weight bullet will yaw and start to tumble when it hits the first panel of sheetrock, it hits the 2nd panel and kills off a lot of energy because it's not poking a perfect circle in the sheetrock. Then you have the external wall that is sheet rock, insulation, OSB panel and hardie plank siding like my house has. There is no way it's going to exit the house. There is also frangible 5.56 that turns back into metal dust when it hits something that is harder than body tissue. A 9mm and 12g will penetrate much further than any 5.56 round.

Racking a shotgun simply isnt going to make someone in your house get scared and run for their life. I dont care how many times dumbass joe Biden says it will. Hell it gives the person in your house a hell of a good idea as to where.you are at. Its absolutely stupid to think thats all you need to do.

I suggest that you get yourself learnt up before you bump your gums or put finger to keyboard....



The ar15 is by far the most popular rifle in the country, there are millions and millions of them here, yet more people are killed with hammers every year. Hell doctors kill way more people than an ar15. We dont have a gun problem we have a problem with people that have defective gray matter in their skulls.

[cale]

A 5.56 round "NATO" or otherwise is not going to go through my house and into my neighbors. A fast moving light weight bullet will yaw and start to tumble when it hits the first panel of sheetrock, it hits the 2nd panel and kills off a lot of energy because it's not poking a perfect circle in the sheetrock. Then you have the external wall that is sheet rock, insulation, OSB panel and hardie plank siding like my house has. There is no way it's going to exit the house.

Penetration tests are readily available showing the capabilities of all the common rounds and travelling through common building materials. The hardiplank would slow it down considerably, but the drywall and OSB are like butter. It's leaving your house.

[Mediumrarechicken]

Penetration tests are readily available showing the capabilities of all the common rounds and travelling through common building materials. The hardiplank would slow it down considerably, but the drywall and OSB are like butter. It's leaving your house.

There is quite a difference between making some small test walls and putting them a ft apart and spacing them out at 10 or 12ft. Pistol calibers arnt affected at all with the larger spacing, but 5.56 tumbles and deviates right off the bat

Hell my old ak74 I had would keyhole a paper target at 5 yards, the bore was oversized and sucked ass, but now that I think about it would have been a good HD gun.

[mrsleeve]

There is quite a difference between making some small test walls and putting them a ft apart and spacing them out at 10 or 12ft. Pistol calibers arnt affected at all with the larger spacing, but 5.56 tumbles and deviates right off the bat

Hell my old ak74 I had would keyhole a paper target at 5 yards, the bore was oversized and sucked ass, but now that I think about it would have been a good HD gun.

Almost any center fire rifle round "can" show a slight oblong penetration pattern at that range as the bullet is still stabilizing it self for the duration of its flight. Many High velocity rounds dont fully stabilize until the 50-100 yard range.

That said, and as much as I hate to side with Decay, hes right unless a 5.56 hits something substantial or meaty its leaving the house with most normal construction, but standard interior drywall and exterior wall construction is not going to contain a 5.56. NOW that said your correct 5.56 will start to tumble and key hole and lose a lot of steam after the 1st couple sheets of interior wall, and if there is a reasonable distance between homes (like my house) that projectile is likely landing in a pasture or the yard before it gets to the neighbors. But for arguments sake it does make it to the neighbors house its not likely to go thought another exterior wall and maintain enough velocity to cause critical injury's to those occupants.

I do however agree with you, that RACKING your shotgun in a home invasion situation is the DUMBEST FUCKING THING YOU CAN DO. In the attempt "to scare off the intruder" all you have done in that instance is give up 97% of your advantages. You have given up every aspect of "surprise motherfucker," and told them your awake, know they are there, and are willing to defend your self, and given them a good idea as to your general location and bearing to find you....... Doing that is going to cause a person set on doing bad shit ( which they have already committed to by breaking into your home) to prepare for a fight and shoot 1st when they enter a room. I dont know about you but I am not giving up any single advantage I have against people breaking into my home at 3am. While crouching in the corner adjacent to my bedroom door in my boxers, NO WAY IN hell would I rack a shot gun, drop a slide hard, or drop a bolt, I am going to be silent as possible to gather every fraction of a second I can, before having to make a life or death choice.

the constitution was written on paper, not set in stone, because it is a living document.

Your being purposefully obtuse here and you know as well as I and most everyone else in here knows that "living document" means "can be amended and changed" to meet the needs of the people and country as things change. The founders knew there would be ever increasing technology and changes in society, thats why there are several mechanisms in which to amend the Constitution, but none of them are easy. Constitutional amendments are not supposed to be easy as they are meant to be hard to allow time for thoughtful consideration and debate, among all the states and govt in general to be sure the amendment is prudent and well considered from all aspects, not just jammed in due to knee jerk reactions to some type of event.

This is the idea of a "living document" Not that we get to reinterpret the words written every 10-20 years based on what our current flavor of the day activism and thought process is. For if that were to happen the highest law in the land would be worth less than than the parchment its printed on and ink its written with. The document would lose any and all weight and strength. As it would be subjected the whims of and fickleness of the very people it protects. How about we start reinterpreting the plain and simple language of the 1st amendment....... Be careful what you wish for...

[Mediumrarechicken]

While there are many ways that people set up tests, many have all the "walls" on a table. That doesnt factor in the tumbling you would get from one wall to another like you would get in the real world. https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box...sulated-walls/

[saucers]

trump is coming for our guns!

[decay]

I do however agree with you, that RACKING your shotgun in a home invasion situation is the DUMBEST FUCKING THING YOU CAN DO. In the attempt "to scare off the intruder" all you have done in that instance is give up 97% of your advantages. You have given up every aspect of "surprise motherfucker," and told them your awake, know they are there, and are willing to defend your self, and given them a good idea as to your general location and bearing to find you....... Doing that is going to cause a person set on doing bad shit ( which they have already committed to by breaking into your home) to prepare for a fight and shoot 1st when they enter a room. I dont know about you but I am not giving up any single advantage I have against people breaking into my home at 3am. While crouching in the corner adjacent to my bedroom door in my boxers, NO WAY IN hell would I rack a shot gun, drop a slide hard, or drop a bolt, I am going to be silent as possible to gather every fraction of a second I can, before having to make a life or death choice.

i don't know what chicken-boy said because he's on my ignore list and i don't have any interest in how the tactics he learned in the garage of his local proud boy house are *so much* better than what i've trained for but you and i clearly have a difference of decision-making process, not tactics.

if someone is in my house, with my wife present, that life or death choice has already been made. racking the slide and employing the tactical-situation-shout (i've got a good one, i gave a woman a panic attack once and the EMTs sent her to the hospital) is one last chance to let the police take them away rather than the coroner.

are you surprised that i'd say i'd kill someone who presented a threat by breaking into my house? well, you've just taken the first step on the journey to discovering the difference between a liberal and a leftist.

Your being purposefully obtuse here and you know as well as I and most everyone else in here knows that "living document" means "can be amended and changed" to meet the needs of the people and country as things change. The founders knew there would be ever increasing technology and changes in society, thats why there are several mechanisms in which to amend the Constitution, but none of them are easy.

i'm not being obtuse, because you have clearly and effectively interpreted and restated my point back to me, right here. man, it shouldn't pain you to agree with me on some things because we disagree on others.

and i didn't say it should be easy, but it should be possible.

[mrsleeve]

i don't know what chicken-boy said because he's on my ignore list and i don't have any interest in how the tactics he learned in the garage of his local proud boy house are *so much* better than what i've trained for but you and i clearly have a difference of decision-making process, not tactics.

if someone is in my house, with my wife present, that life or death choice has already been made. racking the slide and employing the tactical-situation-shout (i've got a good one, i gave a woman a panic attack once and the EMTs sent her to the hospital) is one last chance to let the police take them away rather than the coroner.

are you surprised that i'd say i'd kill someone who presented a threat by breaking into my house? well, you've just taken the first step on the journey to discovering the difference between a liberal and a leftist.



i'm not being obtuse, because you have clearly and effectively interpreted and restated my point back to me, right here. man, it shouldn't pain you to agree with me on some things because we disagree on others.

and i didn't say it should be easy, but it should be possible.

I have no issues with how you chose to defend your home, and I have no doubt you would defend in a similar manner as I would given your back ground..... I dont want have to put 3 heavy turkey loads of the 12ga flavor into someone in my house at 3am nor do I want the wife to ever have to make that play either. As we agree on the fact that they are there, they have made some bad choices that end how ever they may. That said your states castle law stipulates a 1st duty to retreat, my states does not..... So I suppose a difference in tactics could be warranted upon given regional "stipulations and requirements" from bureaucrats.

Well then we agree that the Constitution should be interpreted, implemented and upheld with the original intention of the amendment as written??? If this is the case then why are we even having this conversation ??

It is very possible to add amendments and has been done a "number" of times in the past even reamended to negate a previous failed amendment.

[decay]

That said your states castle law stipulates a 1st duty to retreat, my states does not...

*shrug* i've said what i'd do in that situation. if it ever happens, i'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Well then we agree that the Constitution should be interpreted, implemented and upheld with the original intention of the amendment as written??? If this is the case then why are we even having this conversation ??

It is very possible to add amendments and has been done a "number" of times in the past even reamended to negate a previous failed amendment.

*sigh*

we're having this discussion because we live in a dangerous world. i live in san francisco, and due to socioeconomic factors outside of any of our control it is a crime epicenter. both of my vehicles have damaged lock cylinders from attempted theft, and last year i was assaulted by 2 dudes trying to break into the music school that shared my living space (guitars and mixers and etc are high-value theft targets, they're worth a lot for their size/weight, not serialized unless the end-user did it, and any pawn shop will take them because "i'm quitting the band"). i kept them out, but i got hurt and had to take a week off of work.

so yeah. home defense is a very real subject to me. i've had to do it, and it's not the kind of fun everyone seems to think it is from how much they enjoy preparing for it.

however comma.

i can recognize that there are weapons systems and accessories that wouldn't have helped me in that situation, and they have no valid use case for a civilian.

we regulate the sale of fertilizer- literally processed cow shit- because it was used in a bombing that killed or injured hundreds of people.

why should we *not* ban bump stocks when the vegas shooting is only one example of a similar event that used firearms rather than explosives?

let's turn this around and frame it the other way. i'm a trained-in-violence anarchist with knowledge of how to utilize explosives, both tactically and strategically. that should set off all of your fox news warning alarms and red flags.

i have no requirement in my business, job, or life that would cause me to need either a bumpstock or a truckful of ammonium nitrate, but if i decide to buy those things, you should probably start worrying.

we regulate processed feces because we don't want another OKC bombing. we should also ban bump stocks because we don't want another asshole losing his mind and doing a spray-and-pray into a festival in vegas, or a church, or a mosque, or a school, or[list continues].

we're having this discussion because even though it's ultimately a couple of nobodies ranting into the abyss on an obscure forum for vintage BMWs, it's better to exchange ideas than blows.

[Mediumrarechicken]

Almost any center fire rifle round "can" show a slight oblong penetration pattern at that range as the bullet is still stabilizing it self for the duration of its flight. Many High velocity rounds dont fully stabilize until the 50-100 yard range.

That said, and as much as I hate to side with Decay, hes right unless a 5.56 hits something substantial or meaty its leaving the house with most normal construction, but standard interior drywall and exterior wall construction is not going to contain a 5.56. NOW that said your correct 5.56 will start to tumble and key hole and lose a lot of steam after the 1st couple sheets of interior wall, and if there is a reasonable distance between homes (like my house) that projectile is likely landing in a pasture or the yard before it gets to the neighbors. But for arguments sake it does make it to the neighbors house its not likely to go thought another exterior wall and maintain enough velocity to cause critical injury's to those occupants.

I do however agree with you, that RACKING your shotgun in a home invasion situation is the DUMBEST FUCKING THING YOU CAN DO. In the attempt "to scare off the intruder" all you have done in that instance is give up 97% of your advantages. You have given up every aspect of "surprise motherfucker," and told them your awake, know they are there, and are willing to defend your self, and given them a good idea as to your general location and bearing to find you....... Doing that is going to cause a person set on doing bad shit ( which they have already committed to by breaking into your home) to prepare for a fight and shoot 1st when they enter a room. I dont know about you but I am not giving up any single advantage I have against people breaking into my home at 3am. While crouching in the corner adjacent to my bedroom door in my boxers, NO WAY IN hell would I rack a shot gun, drop a slide hard, or drop a bolt, I am going to be silent as possible to gather every fraction of a second I can, before having to make a life or death choice.



Your being purposefully obtuse here and you know as well as I and most everyone else in here knows that "living document" means "can be amended and changed" to meet the needs of the people and country as things change. The founders knew there would be ever increasing technology and changes in society, thats why there are several mechanisms in which to amend the Constitution, but none of them are easy. Constitutional amendments are not supposed to be easy as they are meant to be hard to allow time for thoughtful consideration and debate, among all the states and govt in general to be sure the amendment is prudent and well considered from all aspects, not just jammed in due to knee jerk reactions to some type of event.

This is the idea of a "living document" Not that we get to reinterpret the words written every 10-20 years based on what our current flavor of the day activism and thought process is. For if that were to happen the highest law in the land would be worth less than than the parchment its printed on and ink its written with. The document would lose any and all weight and strength. As it would be subjected the whims of and fickleness of the very people it protects. How about we start reinterpreting the plain and simple language of the 1st amendment....... Be careful what you wish for...

About 10 years ago century arms had a run of ak74's that that had over bored barrels. I'd only get a few shots to hit a target at 200yards and about half on the target at 100. Bullets dont stabilize after they leave the barrel, if they had fins maybe they could. Just like if you throw a football and it's not a spiral, it will flop around. It's impossible. I've never heard of it happening, but if you can send me a link on it, I'll read it.


Oh hey Rot, I dont train with proud boys, I do a few carbine and long range 2 day courses a year at gunsite and other facilities. Oh then there is work training too. I know my way around a gun. Sorry that you cant wrap your head around it. Also sorry that even with all the training you have you are still an idiot. Oh and the reason san fran is a shit hole is because yall vote for Democrats but you all still havent figured out that they dont care about the homeless or minorities, they give just enough lip service to make it look like they care.

[decay]

Oh hey Rot, I dont train with proud boys, I do a few carbine and long range 2 day courses a year at gunsite and other facilities. Oh then there is work training too. I know my way around a gun. Sorry that you cant wrap your head around it. Also sorry that even with all the training you have you are still an idiot. Oh and the reason san fran is a shit hole is because yall vote for Democrats but you all still havent figured out that they dont care about the homeless or minorities, they give just enough lip service to make it look like they care.

it's been years now and you're still too stupid to figure out i'm not a liberal, and you're trying to tell me to wrap my head around anything?

boy, you don't have enough 550 cord to make a square knot with, and that's evident because all you can present is an ad hominem and false associations. shut the fuck up.