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    #46
    Originally posted by decay View Post
    even as a leftist (and i'll take a moment to remind you all that that's *not* the same thing as a liberal) i recognize that abolishing ICE isn't going to happen, and given that immigration is only part of their lane, it's not necessarily a good idea, either. who is going to run the ports and manage the intake of all the shit we buy that's made, yanno, pretty much everywhere but here?

    that said; it's important to point out that the "but obama" narrative from the right is not technically incorrect- he deported over 3M people during his tenure. what i'm not seeing a lot of discussion about is that what's changed under drumpf is where the net is being cast- from a focus on actual violent criminals, to anyone who entered via an extra-legal route.

    it's quite obvious that the people who made this decision won't be significantly impacted by the economic effects of getting rid of undocumented laborers. if you still think "anyone without papers must go" a good idea, ok, but i hope you're aware of the cost increase that's going to involve when you go to the supermarket every week. you think your lettuce and tomatoes might get a bit more expensive if the people picking them have to have a W2 and be paid minimum wage, maybe?

    oh and there's that whole thing in the constitution about due process and no cruel or unusual punishment- i definitely think unnecessarily separating detained families without a deadline for trial/processing and without responsibly tracking what kid goes with what parent- which is what we're doing- is cruel, unusual, and irresponsible.
    here's the thing. Until we get back to baseline, actually operating within the law, we have no idea where we are cost wise or anything else.

    Targeting people who immigrate outside the law is proper. Doubly so for violent illegal immigrants.

    If you don't approve of the law, change the law. Operate within the framework and fight for your point of view.

    the millennial generation is a WWII generation demographics wise. Lot's to like and hope for from this group.
    “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
    Sir Winston Churchill

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      #47
      Originally posted by decay View Post
      even as a leftist (and i'll take a moment to remind you all that that's *not* the same thing as a liberal) i recognize that abolishing ICE isn't going to happen, and given that immigration is only part of their lane, it's not necessarily a good idea, either. who is going to run the ports and manage the intake of all the shit we buy that's made, yanno, pretty much everywhere but here?

      that said; it's important to point out that the "but obama" narrative from the right is not technically incorrect- he deported over 3M people during his tenure. what i'm not seeing a lot of discussion about is that what's changed under drumpf is where the net is being cast- from a focus on actual violent criminals, to anyone who entered via an extra-legal route.

      it's quite obvious that the people who made this decision won't be significantly impacted by the economic effects of getting rid of undocumented laborers. if you still think "anyone without papers must go" a good idea, ok, but i hope you're aware of the cost increase that's going to involve when you go to the supermarket every week. you think your lettuce and tomatoes might get a bit more expensive if the people picking them have to have a W2 and be paid minimum wage, maybe?

      oh and there's that whole thing in the constitution about due process and no cruel or unusual punishment- i definitely think unnecessarily separating detained families without a deadline for trial/processing and without responsibly tracking what kid goes with what parent- which is what we're doing- is cruel, unusual, and irresponsible.

      here's the thing. Until we get back to baseline, actually operating within the law, we have no idea where we are cost wise or anything else.

      Targeting people who immigrate outside the law is proper. Doubly so for violent illegal immigrants.

      If you don't approve of the law, change the law. Operate within the framework and fight for your point of view.

      the millennial generation is a WWII generation demographics wise. Lot's to like and hope for from this group.
      “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
      Sir Winston Churchill

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        #48
        Originally posted by gwb72tii View Post
        here's the thing. Until we get back to baseline, actually operating within the law, we have no idea where we are cost wise or anything else.
        yes we do. we have the receipts from the private corporations being paid to imprison these people.

        https://taskandpurpose.com/separated...-border-costs/

        are you happy that shit's coming out of your paycheck?
        past:
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        current:
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          #49
          Originally posted by decay View Post
          what i'm not seeing a lot of discussion about is that what's changed under drumpf is where the net is being cast- from a focus on actual violent criminals, to anyone who entered via an extra-legal route.
          Is extra-legal supposed to be a benign term for illegal? Call me cold and heartless, but I believe in law and order. We have laws about who we let in and the imperative to enforce those laws. Break the law and face the consequences, same as any natural citizen who gets caught breaking the law.

          Sorry that central/latin America has devolved into a violent, gang-infested shithole, but we didn't create those problems and so they're not our problems to solve. Maybe the best we could do to help is to quell the demand for drugs and negotiate fair trade. Beyond that it's up to the citizens of that country to collectively get their shit together and start moving in the right direction. Why aren't there discussions about why that doesn't seem to be happening?

          Yes, we are a nation of immigrants, and after the Civil War our "melting pot" of euro-mutts built an advanced industrial nation in record time. We've survived economic meltdowns, stepped up in two world wars, supported institutions of higher education, and studied the depths of the universe. Devastated from WWII, Europe pulled itself together and established peace and prosperity, same for Japan. So forgive me if I'm sick of the US and Europe being treated as economic shelters obliged to the absorption of millions of people apparently powerless to turn things around in their homeland. Again, call me cold and heartless...
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            #50
            Originally posted by E30 Wagen View Post
            Is extra-legal supposed to be a benign term for illegal? Call me cold and heartless, but I believe in law and order. We have laws about who we let in and the imperative to enforce those laws. Break the law and face the consequences, same as any natural citizen who gets caught breaking the law.

            Sorry that central/latin America has devolved into a violent, gang-infested shithole, but we didn't create those problems and so they're not our problems to solve. Maybe the best we could do to help is to quell the demand for drugs and negotiate fair trade. Beyond that it's up to the citizens of that country to collectively get their shit together and start moving in the right direction. Why aren't there discussions about why that doesn't seem to be happening?

            Yes, we are a nation of immigrants, and after the Civil War our "melting pot" of euro-mutts built an advanced industrial nation in record time. We've survived economic meltdowns, stepped up in two world wars, supported institutions of higher education, and studied the depths of the universe. Devastated from WWII, Europe pulled itself together and established peace and prosperity, same for Japan. So forgive me if I'm sick of the US and Europe being treated as economic shelters obliged to the absorption of millions of people apparently powerless to turn things around in their homeland. Again, call me cold and heartless...
            So you are a law & order person? That is great what about the laws Trump has broken/is breaking?

            For decades he defrauded banks, investors & contractors. Currently, he is in breach of the lease for Trump hotel D.C..

            He is allowing and praising his EPA chief to break almost every ethics rule that exists.

            That is just the tip of the iceburg.

            [IMG]https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/my350z.com-vbulletin/550x225/80-parkerbsig_5096690e71d912ec1addc4a84e99c374685fc03 8.jpg[/IMG

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              #51
              Originally posted by parkerbink View Post
              So you are a law & order person? That is great what about the laws Trump has broken/is breaking?

              For decades he defrauded banks, investors & contractors. Currently, he is in breach of the lease for Trump hotel D.C..

              He is allowing and praising his EPA chief to break almost every ethics rule that exists.

              That is just the tip of the iceburg.
              ^ I'm aware of all the immoral crap he's been up to and is the reason I didn't vote for him and never will. Just because I take a hardline stance on immigration policy doesn't mean I'm pro Trump or even pro Republican. I'd love nothing more than to see him face prosecution.
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                #52
                Originally posted by E30 Wagen View Post
                ^ I'm aware of all the immoral crap he's been up to and is the reason I didn't vote for him and never will. Just because I take a hardline stance on immigration policy doesn't mean I'm pro Trump or even pro Republican. I'd love nothing more than to see him face prosecution.
                Fair enough.

                I'm not saying either open the borders nor it's ok to enter illegally.

                What I am saying is it is inane when Trump says any American wants open borders and more crime. (his claim dems are for that, reps are for law & order)

                Also, his regime is arresting & separating families that seek asylum.

                Theoretically, if one presents themselves at the border for asylum, they are supposed to be brought in and given a fair hearing.

                [IMG]https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/my350z.com-vbulletin/550x225/80-parkerbsig_5096690e71d912ec1addc4a84e99c374685fc03 8.jpg[/IMG

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by parkerbink View Post
                  Fair enough.

                  I'm not saying either open the borders nor it's ok to enter illegally.

                  What I am saying is it is inane when Trump says any American wants open borders and more crime. (his claim dems are for that, reps are for law & order)

                  Also, his regime is arresting & separating families that seek asylum.

                  Theoretically, if one presents themselves at the border for asylum, they are supposed to be brought in and given a fair hearing.
                  This is one of my biggest pet peeves with him and Foxnews lately. Stop lying, are there fringe Dems that want open boarders and to completely take all the guns away, I am sure there are, just as there are fringe Rep that want ethnic cleansing, but the majority of people want something sensible.

                  I have heard no Dem senator go out there and say yea I want completely open borders, that is just an outright lie.

                  Its stuff like this that is driving the us vs them war that I hate about Trump. People are probably closer to each other than they think in terms of actual solutions, but with Trump just pushing the extreme and the Dem and Rep acting like children and not just working sensibly (looking at you Mitch!) we will never come together.
                  Euro Delivery Thread///E30 Project Klaus

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                    #54
                    I agree it's wrong to separate a child from his family. That being said, I've reached the point where I'm completely numb to emotional appeals. After decades of millions of "asylum" seekers arriving at our borders, certainly you have to question what's really going on: has there really been decades of war and destruction driving people out, or is the US where all the economic opportunities are? And I don't care if they're trying to escape gang violence; I view that as a governmental/societal issue that should be owned and dealt with by the citizens of their respective country, not something we or any other country are at all obligated to absorb, especially when we have our own societal aches and pains to deal with. When people here started fleeing the gang-riddled inner cities they didn't seek asylum in Canada or Europe.
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                      #55
                      Originally posted by E30 Wagen View Post
                      Is extra-legal supposed to be a benign term for illegal?
                      seeing as it literally means "other than legal"... yes...
                      past:
                      1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                      1986 325e (turbo dorito)
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                      current:
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                        #56
                        Originally posted by E30 Wagen View Post
                        And I don't care if they're trying to escape gang violence; I view that as a governmental/societal issue that should be owned and dealt with by the citizens of their respective country, not something we or any other country are at all obligated to absorb, especially when we have our own societal aches and pains to deal with.
                        the problem with that viewpoint is that we created some of this situation by having the CIA muddle around in central american politics in the last century.

                        the term for what's happening now is "blowback".
                        past:
                        1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                        1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                        1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                        current:
                        1985 323i baur (project to resume soon...)
                        2013 ninja 300 (way more fun than a car)

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                          #57
                          ^
                          I think you mean "the war on drugs"...........


                          Why are none of you bleeding hearts all up in arms over the hundreds of kids though out the country that are CITIZENS of the USA, that are separated from their parents and placed into "the system" every day when those adults BREAK THE LAW and get arrested.....

                          Dont bother answering, Its not a photo op, for OH NOES THE HUMANITY, Look at what trump did!!!!! # humanitarian crisis on the US southern boarder, rich white people hate poor brown people................................
                          Originally posted by Fusion
                          If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                          The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                          The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                          Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                          William Pitt-

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                            ^
                            I think you mean "the war on drugs"...........
                            that too- but the aforementioned meddling started decades before, in the '50s.
                            past:
                            1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                            1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                            1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                            current:
                            1985 323i baur (project to resume soon...)
                            2013 ninja 300 (way more fun than a car)

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                              Why are none of you bleeding hearts all up in arms over the hundreds of kids though out the country that are CITIZENS...

                              I had kind of the same reaction. I thought the whole media hyping of the use of "cages" and like terminology was way over-hyped. And while I'm not a fan of crying children and the like... kids cry. They cry at the doctor, the dentist, and tons of other places. Why wouldn't they be crying at an immigration holding facility? The media blew all that way out of proportion.


                              The situation at the border is a shitty one and I'm not entirely sure there is a way to follow the law and satisfy everyone. As much as I hate to agree with anything this administration might think, having your children be removed from your care for a few months might be a huge deterrent to attempting a re-entry.


                              And I realize that America has a long tradition of immigration, harboring for religious persecution, etc. But we don't have an entire western half of the country to expand to anymore. The selection process has to get stricter and the numbers have to continue to drop. There is no great way to handle this problem...
                              "A good memory for quotes combined with a poor memory for attribution can lead to a false sense of originality."
                              -----------------------------------------
                              91 318is Turbo Sold
                              87 325 Daily driver Sold
                              06 4.8is X5
                              06 Mtec X3
                              05 4.4i X5 Sold
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                              83 528e Totaled
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                                #60
                                Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                                ^
                                Why are none of you bleeding hearts all up in arms over the hundreds of kids though out the country that are CITIZENS of the USA, that are separated from their parents and placed into "the system" every day when those adults BREAK THE LAW and get arrested.....

                                Dont bother answering, Its not a photo op, for OH NOES THE HUMANITY, Look at what trump did!!!!! # humanitarian crisis on the US southern boarder, rich white people hate poor brown people................................
                                I think it depends where you are. In my neck of the woods (I live in Morris County, NJ, I work next door in Essex County, NJ) there are plenty of people that are dissatisfied with the disadvantaged situations that children find themselves in because of American citizen parents that run afoul of the law. In Essex County we have Newark, NJ, probably most famous today for its international airport and the fact that Cory Booker was once mayor. It's historically known for having some of the worst race riots in the late 60s, which started the white flight (my grandparents being one family that moved out) and the downturn of the city with no complete recovery even today. Newark and its surrounding suburbs (Irvington, Orange, Harrison, etc) are all areas that have high rates of incarcerations as well as incidences of single-parent or no-parent households.

                                Many of the schools in my area give scholarships to children affected by these circumstances, there are meals and aftercare programs set up and funded by donations from those same "bleeding hearts" that feel the immigration issue with separations of families is not right. There is a movement in many local towns to limit incarcerations for non-violent crimes because it has been proven that it destroys not only the lives of the prosecuted, but the lives of their children as well, who had absolutely no say in the matter. People do care, the problem is that there isn't anything truly shock and awe or 24 news-worthy about someone quietly making sandwiches to hand out to impoverished kids whose fathers are in jail, or working the local soup kitchen to feed people who are hungry, or making a monetary donation so an orphaned kid can get an education and change his stars.

                                Just because you don't see the "bleeding hearts" on TV talking about US citizens who are in similar circumstances to the southern border immigrants doesn't mean that those same people wouldn't speak up if asked to, it's just that the immigration issue is the flavor of the month, so that's what you get.

                                I think some of you guys are missing the point that those people who talk about a common humanity are trying to make. The flashpoint today is the immigrants at the southern border, however, people who truly care about all people, regardless of where they are from, believe this immigration conflict to be just a piece of a much larger problem, the Us vs. Them mentality, that for some reason there is one subset of people that deserves to be treated better and have more rights while there is another subset of people that deserves to be stripped of those rights. The idea of being separated from your children, regardless of who you are and where you came from just doesn't seem right to me. I get that there is a limit there, that you will be separated from your kids if you murder someone, but crossing an imaginary line on a map just doesn't seem to be a crime that fits that punishment. If that makes me a "bleeding heart" than so be it, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be put in that situation if the shoe was on the other foot.


                                That was longer than expected when I started out...I'm going on a service trip tomorrow morning to help the murderers and rapists of Central America build a soccer field and hand out food to the impoverished for a week, sorry I can't babble on about this any longer because I'll actually be doing something to make a positive change in the world...enjoy your banter everyone!

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