Experienced Track Junkies - A moment please?

[Bishop]

I was looking at your kit, but there's lack of info, feedback, etc... I'm still up in the air really... S54? Massive BBK? Bar and seats? etc.... ?

[blueapplesoda]

I like turbo m20 on the track..properly built it is reliable and spanks alot of cars...well besides the fact that linear power is better for track that is ;) but sticky tires fix that.

I daily drive my e30 on the street and hit the track every month or two. I have a dedicated track car for racing, but that is another story. To be honest, the skills I've picked up racing spec makes driving my e30 on a track event like a sunday breeze. there are either guys who have 500 hp and pass you using the dirt as "racing room", or guys who just let you pass, not really anyone to play with on track event days.


look at my sig, i was reaching for my tea in my custom cupholder when i passed that e46 M :)

[Massive Lee]

Other option is a proper 3/3.1L stroker M20 like metric mechanic or vac builds. It'll cost a fair bit, but can give stock S50 levels of power at M20 level weight.

And still end up with the notoriously weak M20 rocker arms... Nah...

[JRKOUPE]

Other option is a proper 3/3.1L stroker M20 like metric mechanic or vac builds. It'll cost a fair bit, but can give stock S50 levels of power at M20 level weight.

is that really an option?...I guess it is.....naaaah it isnt...... modding an m20 for power is just a bit dollar silly. That will run for thousands.....if you are paying a shop.....and to get what power?....



s50/2 waaay smarter.

[Bimmerman325i]

Other option is a proper 3/3.1L stroker M20 like metric mechanic or vac builds. It'll cost a fair bit, but can give stock S50 levels of power at M20 level weight.

[Bishop]

Thanks for all the info. David, we both know this isn't immediate anyway and I'm having a lot of fun w/ the m20. Danny, yes street driven..

* This is mostly a street driven car that I feel is underpowered. I'd like to change that, but not upset the car on track. That was the jist of this thread*

Thx Koupe... The m20 is strong like David said, I pass plenty, and I give point bys. The car's fun, I just think there's more to be desired for "fun" on the street. Do I have a lot more to learn? Of course. Will the m20 remain for quite some time because I'm going to school full-time and don't make the $$ I used to? Of course... This is all down the line thinking, and regardless, I'd like a BBK BEFORE I go for more power anyway

EDIT: Thx for your opinion Lee. I think i've PM'd you a few times, and like I just said, I want to stop the car reliably before i make it faster...

[Massive Lee]

S50 / S52 swap all the way. The car won't miss a beat and you'll do all your sessions. stock is good.

Lee

[JRKOUPE]

swap

..there are some good responses here by dudes that know their shit.


.......and there is also the typical BS and off tangent non sense.

I could say that for a mainly DD, I dont understand why the car feels slow......my m20 while driving to tracks was alot of fun...not fast but fun.....and/but I wasnt really racing any1 while on the way.

The truth is an m20 is nice but so very many cars are faster...on the track and off. To me it s not about fast, but more about a cars character. is it easy revving.....nice to shift..sound good, nimble, etc.

I do alot of track days....for over 5 yrs...like many here that have responded. The m20 is great for track work.....BUT..as you get faster you will be joined by better drivers and faster cars.....AND YOU WILL BE ONE OF THE SLOWER CARS IN THE FAST GROUPS.

Some say they dont get run down by many other cars?...well, then that group is not fast!

Im a decent driver......top half of every run group or better. i want to drive the car home...I drive like 7 or 8/10ths...not harder. A driver of similiar or even lesser skills can be faster w/ more hp. I pass alot..and I give point bys...

I often give point bys to slower drivers/faster cars....so they can get a nice hi speed run so I then can catch up!
But to be really fast I had to drive the m20 and the car on the edge...and eventually youll have an off....I got fast enough that on hard lt handers I had like 0 oil press....so a baffle was needed.

OTOH.....many of my buddys run e36 M3s and I will tell you they NEVER have mechanicals...those cars if good solid cars are dead nuts reliable as well..like m20s.


That being said I got a good deal on an s50....and will be picking the completed swapped car up tomm......so Ill chime in again on what its like ...


Dont do turbo......those hoods ARE ALWAYS OPEN AT TRACK......but maybe you are crazy mechanical and want to play and invent and end up w/ over 300hp...then do turbo. Me, I want dead nuts reliable....I want to run every session....check oil and play w/ tire pressures..thats it.


I say drive the piss out of the m20 for a few yrs....set the car up well.....r tires...blah blah.....then jump on an s54 as the prices will drop and the swap will be common place.

[Danny]

You drive this car on the street right?

S50.

[Bimmerman325i]

I'll preface my opinion a bit with some history.

I first autocrossed and HPDE'd the 60whp of fury Subaru. Got passed all the damn time on the track, but enjoyed the hell out of it. The lack of power helped me focus on the proper line through the corners, even though its straight-line prowess leaves much to be desired. I'm still faster driving that thing than any other car I've been in, since the car forces you to maintain momentum. It's not fast around the track, but it's damn fun to work for your supper.

Then I bought the E30. Thing was in rather ragged shape, but worked a charm. Very unoptimized suspension, quite dead motor, skinny hard 195/14 Azenis, 262kmi, yet I kept up with E46 M3s. Fun car, mine had problems, but yet another win for underpowered cars.

Then I sold the E30, bought the E36 M3, and have spent way too damn much time, money, and mental effort working on the goddamned thing. I do think it is a better overall car when it's in working condition than the E30, but I'm not convinced it's a better buy. Is it more fun? Yes. Is it more reliable? Absolutely not. Is it faster on track? No clue, since it keeps breaking and emptying my wallet. It was even in great shape when I bought it, yet things keep breaking. If you are chasing the absolute fastest laptime, it is probably the car to get. If you are looking for a car to learn the art of driving in, a bone stock 1.8L Impreza's probably the best car, so your E30's definitely plenty.

We both know Garrett's 92 325is with the (bone stock) NV M50 is faster than most prepped E36/E46 M3s around here, entirely because he stuck with an underpowered car and learned to drive the piss out of it.

So, my advice. Screw power for a track car/dd. Your M20 is freakishly strong. If you really want a motor swap, put in a NV M50 (gains you shit for power, just better reliability and less things to break/worry about). If you really want power, S50/2.

What I'd do is just leave it alone and drive the piss out of it. Power'd be nice, but is it worth the cash when you, the driver, need to be worked on more than the car?

Power's fun though.

[Emre]

this hasn't really been my experience. it probably varies track to track, but other than genuine supercars I haven't really been ran down by that many cars.

I would agree that the E30 is slow by modern standards. No matter how well it's set up and how well you drive it, you'll still get passed by half the field the minute you get to a straight.

It's a little frustrating to run an E30 in an environment where an E46 M3 on coilovers, StopTech BBK, and 265mm Michelin Pilot Sport Cups is a mid-pack car and an E36 M3 on GC coilovers and R-compounds is considered a back-marker.

Still, I can usually find some cars to run with. There is generally another E30, a J-Stock M3, some Spec Miatas, a Golf GTI, or maybe a Honda Civic or Mazda RX-8 to play with.

[Dave]

Yeah, not exactly your typical "I got a used turbo off eBay and a Starion intercooler at the Pick-n-Pay" setup that you usually see. To have that car built, you'd be paying at least 50k. And mind you, it still needed a fair amount of dialing in to make it as reliable as it was for the One Lap. There are a couple of spent short blocks to prove it. :o)

The fact is, I think the FI guys are spending about 5x as much time making repairs at track days than the rest of us. I hate when I have to fix stuff at the track.

[Charlie]

4th place in the One Lap of America? Of course the work/budget in that thing is far from your typical turbo e30, I suppose.

And on the whole slow e30 thing - I kind of agree. Last year when I got moved up to A group, I spent most of the day Saturday with my arm out the window. Sunday was slightly better, but still not great.

So far this year, it has improved a lot. But while I am passing some e36 Ms/ and the like in my stock drivetrain car, there are some cars that just eat me up no matter what now that I am in the highest run group.

Don't get me wrong, there is still more speed to be had in the car as it is. But it is not like it was in C/D run group days where I could eat up all the "fast" cars.

I think Anthony's car *kinda* goes outside the realm of your typical e30tech turbo build. That thing was insane, I watched it spin the tires the entire way down the back stretch at mid oh when I was behind him coming out of the keyhole.

-Charlie

[Dave]

I have never seen a turboed e30 outside of its natural habitat: non-running in a shitty apartment complex parking lot.

Go with the M/S50 varient. It's painless.

-Charlie

4th place in the One Lap of America? Of course the work/budget in that thing is far from your typical turbo e30, I suppose.

And on the whole slow e30 thing - I kind of agree. Last year when I got moved up to A group, I spent most of the day Saturday with my arm out the window. Sunday was slightly better, but still not great.

So far this year, it has improved a lot. But while I am passing some e36 Ms/ and the like in my stock drivetrain car, there are some cars that just eat me up no matter what now that I am in the highest run group.

Don't get me wrong, there is still more speed to be had in the car as it is. But it is not like it was in C/D run group days where I could eat up all the "fast" cars.

[Emre]

The guy was simply asking a motor question, it seems like everyone loves to chime in with the same "hurfdeedurf, fast car/fast driver" lines every single f'n time.

He's asking for our opinion about whether an M20 turbo or M50 swap would be a good investment for a track car. Many of us have the opinion that it's not worth messing with a perfectly good M20 unless there's some reason to do so. Personally, if I were the original poster, I wouldn't do an engine swap until I had the rest of the car optimized and had a few HPDE's under my belt.

To add to the discussion, ran an m20 for 8+ years until I popped it coming through turn 13 at Mid Oh. Stuck a 2.5 Vanos M50 in the car, nice upgrade. Not tons of extra power up top, but a bunch more midrange, really changes the car. Eats E36 M3s and can hassle E46s.

Sounds like you fall into the category of "had a good reason to swap out the M20." That doesn't mean every n00b with an E30 needs to swap in an M50 before hitting the track for the first time, which is where the OP seems to be coming from.