M42 timing marks: WTF?

[StereoInstaller1]

OK, so I am having one hell of a time with this stupid 4 banger, so I am putting out a call for help.

I think the issue is timing, but I have no clue how that would be the case.

First, let us state clearly that we are over 210PSi on all 4 cylinders, so I can safely say nothing is damaged on cam timing...no bent valves.

I built this motor from the best looking bits and pieces out of 3 motors: sprockets from one, chain from another, head from one of them and block from another...but all bits and pieces were in excellent condition.

I do know hte head came from an E36 M42.

So, here you go: when the flywheel is locked on TDC, the crank pulley has the "gap" at the pointer...is this correct? If it is not correct, what the hell could I possibly have done wrong?

So, with the flywheel at the locked position, we measured TDC: that piston is absolutely on TDC...but that damn pointer is pointing at the gap, not the tiny notch.

Both cam sprockets have their happy little arrows pointing directly up, as in reference to the head.

When it fires, which is sort of does, it seems timing is WAY the fuck off, like 20 degrees...which would make sense if that crank sprocket were misaligned...but how is that even possible?

HELP!

Luke

[AndrewBird]

If the cam sprockets arrows are facing straight up and you are sure the crank is at TDC, then there shouldn't be a problem. Did you remove the cam sprockets at some point? Maybe they got put back on in the wrong position?

Could maybe be a crank position sensor acting funny perhaps.

[StereoInstaller1]

If the cam sprockets arrows are facing straight up and you are sure the crank is at TDC, then there shouldn't be a problem. Did you remove the cam sprockets at some point? Maybe they got put back on in the wrong position?

Could maybe be a crank position sensor acting funny perhaps.

Dude...WTF. Did you not read what I said? I said the fucking marks do not line up when the goddamn locking tool is in...maybe you suck at reading?

Did I at some point fail to mention I have built dozens of motors and I know how to time cams and how to measure TDC?

You must have missed the whole "I built this motor out of 3 motors" part? The cam sprockets are adjustable, they could easily be off 20 degrees or more. The worry I have is the shit that is bolted to the crankshaft does not line up end to end, and that shit has locating dowels.

Oh, I know, the massive torque of the M42 just twisted that crankshaft by 25 degrees, that is how that woodruff key is so far off!

EVERYTHING was off, NOTHING is original. Part is E36 M42, most is E30 M42.

Now, pay attention: The motor measures TDC perfectly by measuring piston height: the crank lock successfully locks, but the toothed wheel does not line up.

[Blackangusinc]

Wow dude. You were pretty rude to that guy Nitro. I don't know either of you, but while he may not be fully aware of your expertise, he was at least trying to be helpful.

[KenC]

I'm assuming this is what you called about last night?

The gap on the crank dampener is for the crank position sensor. With the woodruff key on the crank, you really can't slip it on incorrectly either.

If you're able to get 210psi across the board, then the timing is perfect. I always just use piston height for TDC, and then lock the cams on #1 with the sprocket arrows perpendicular to the head plane.

It really sounds to me like you can rule out timing.

[KenC]

So will it actually stay running? Does it seem like maybe a big vacuum leak somewhere or is it shaking a lot like the possibility of an injector not firing?

[StereoInstaller1]

I'm assuming this is what you called about last night?

The gap on the crank dampener is for the crank position sensor. With the woodruff key on the crank, you really can't slip it on incorrectly either.

If you're able to get 210psi across the board, then the timing is perfect. I always just use piston height for TDC, and then lock the cams on #1 with the sprocket arrows perpendicular to the head plane.

It really sounds to me like you can rule out timing.

Yeah, that is what I keep thinking, but that damn crank timing mark does not line up.

TDC+crank lock tool+Cam lock tool+arrows on cam sprockets should = correct...but it don't.

Obviously, overall cam timing is correct, but somehow 2 big hunks of metal that are secured in pace with a woodruff key and a locator dowel respectively don't line up according to the Bentley, Simons' write up or general M42club knowledge/opinion.

That is the issue here: why don't the crank trigger wheel and the flywheel line up.

I am, of course, aware that the gap on the toothed wheel is to trigger the CPS.

So:

1. Piston is measured to be at TDC
2. Flywheel locking tool is installed, and fits at TDC
3. Cams are locked in place with appropriate cam tool
4. Cam sprocket arrows line up 90 degrees from surface of head
5. Cast arrow points to gap in toothed wheel (we understand this to be incorrect)

Now, obviously the cam sprockets and the toothed wheel on the crank control ignition timing, so if they are somehow incorrect, the timing will be wrong...even if the cams are opening and closing the valves at appropriate times.

Obviously, the cams are moving in proper sequence with the crank, but do not line up with the appropriate marks, leading me to think that there is something I screwed up on. An incorrect part, a bad measurement, something.

I need to identify what is wrong here.

We have 3 bottom ends, 3 crank wheels, 2 flywheels, 2 sets of cams, 3 sets of cam gears...all of this shit fit together beautifully, mind you...but some of it is E36, and all of it looks identical to each other aside from condition.

Wow dude. You were pretty rude to that guy Nitro. I don't know either of you, but while he may not be fully aware of your expertise, he was at least trying to be helpful.

Since I don't know you I will be polite. This is rare, mark it on your goddamn calendar that "Luke was nice to me today even after I pissed him off".

I have known Andrew (the "Nitro" guy) for over 6 years. I am very aware of his level of knowledge. He, as well, is very aware of my expertise. I also have tremendous respect for his knowledge and talent, I am a big supporter of his. Consequently, I expect he also knows me well enough to know better than offer stupid shit like "check the sensor", as the question here is not about the car running or not, it is about the goddamn parts not lining up.

Got it? Makes sense? Feel better? Good.

Now, got any useful technical input? I could use some help here, shit ain't lining up.

Luke

[KenC]

What all is from an e36?

If you're using my crank pulley and block, and all of the electronics are e30, it should be fine.

I've never really paid much attention to the crank pulley marks because it can only slide on one way and I find TDC by piston placement.

I'm scratching my head here... :-/

[KenC]

Are you using an M42 flywheel? Or change to an M20 one?

[AndrewBird]

Dude...WTF. Did you not read what I said? I said the fucking marks do not line up when the goddamn locking tool is in...maybe you suck at reading?

Did I at some point fail to mention I have built dozens of motors and I know how to time cams and how to measure TDC?

You must have missed the whole "I built this motor out of 3 motors" part? The cam sprockets are adjustable, they could easily be off 20 degrees or more. The worry I have is the shit that is bolted to the crankshaft does not line up end to end, and that shit has locating dowels.

Oh, I know, the massive torque of the M42 just twisted that crankshaft by 25 degrees, that is how that woodruff key is so far off!

EVERYTHING was off, NOTHING is original. Part is E36 M42, most is E30 M42.

Now, pay attention: The motor measures TDC perfectly by measuring piston height: the crank lock successfully locks, but the toothed wheel does not line up.

You did not once mention you were using the cam lock tool in your first post. If you weren't and were just lining the cams up via the pointers, the cams could be off as the sprockets can be put on in 4 different positions.

And as far as your "Did I at some point fail to mention I have built dozens of motors and I know how to time cams and how to measure TDC?" comment, your experience obviously doesn't matter as you are here asking for help.

Next time you ask for advice, try responding to it a bit better. People will be more likely to help you. Me, I'm done.

[StereoInstaller1]

You did not once mention you were using the cam lock tool in your first post. If you weren't and were just lining the cams up via the pointers, the cams could be off as the sprockets can be put on in 4 different positions.

And as far as your "Did I at some point fail to mention I have built dozens of motors and I know how to time cams and how to measure TDC?" comment, your experience obviously doesn't matter as you are here asking for help.

Next time you ask for advice, try responding to it a bit better. People will be more likely to help you. Me, I'm done.

Dude, you are absolutely right, I should have responded better, or at least not get pissed off while typing.

I apologize.

I should not have bitten your head off while you were trying to offer help, which I do appreciate.

Sorry.
Luke

[StereoInstaller1]

What all is from an e36?

/

That is a big part of the problem, we don't know. We cleaned about a million parts and used the best of each.

If you're using my crank pulley and block, and all of the electronics are e30, it should be fine.

I've never really paid much attention to the crank pulley marks because it can only slide on one way and I find TDC by piston placement.

I'm scratching my head here... :-/

Yeah, I am starting to think the crank sprocket is at fault. Both of the other sprockets on both of the other blocks (4 possible combos, right?) line the tiny little timing mark up on the arrow at verified TDC, which the one on the motor does not.

Time to rip apart the front of the motor. At least the crank wheel comes off with just removing the 6 sprocket bolts, I don't have to mess with the main crank bolt or any fluids at all.

[KenC]

Hmmm interesting. Might be a different sensor placement on the e36?

Well keep us/me updated.

[twistednut]

Here is a picture for reference showing the crank timing sprocket. Notice the locating pin on the holding tool at 3 o'clock and where the gap is.

Second pic shows the locating pin in relation to the woodruff key at TDC.

Luke, don't bite my head off but you mentioned in the other thread that the plug wires were messed up. Are you sure you have the right plug wires going to the correct coils? I helped Sean when he put his COP kit on and he didn't mark the coils. It acted like it wanted to fire but we killed the battery before it actually did. He charged the battery overnight and swapped cylinders 1&2 coils and it fired right up.

[StereoInstaller1]

Yeah, I got that handled. I dug up a pinout for the M42 DME and tested continuity to the coilpacks, so that is under control. I am using the mismatch coil wires, but they will do fine until we go COP.

At this point I am fairly certain that the issue is that toothed wheel. I thought I would have time to tear into it today, but other stuff came up. I will find out tomorrow and post findings then.