Can someone school me on Aluminium block 6's

[Motheye99]

This post has a few question wrapped into one and Its just to fill in the gaps for what my research hasn't turned up. I didn't know which sub forum to post so mods move as you please.

First does a M54 bolt up to a Getrag 240 box?

Is a M52tu swap possible or worth it? I've found very little documentation of it being carried out.

Lastly, am I going down a good path wanting a 6 to replace my M42? I really like the way my car handles in the twisty's and I'm not concerned about tons of straight line power just more torque and more modern platform to Add Itb's too (purely for the sound) So I've learned that a aluminum block M5X family motor will weigh roughly the same as my M42 when mated to the Getrag 240. I know there are few Aluminium block M50's or are they? M52's in the states. And M52TU is much easier to get. That leaves the M54 which I'm sorta leaning to for a swap as its a lot cheaper to do compared to a S54 from my reading. And it ways in the iron block M42 range.

[mtech325]

Yes, a G240 can bolt up to an M54, but it's not a strong gearbox, so you'd be better off using a trans such as the G260 or ZF320.

The M52TU is the dual vanos motor usually found in the e46. The reason it's not as popular is because it makes essentially the same power as a standard m52 single vanos, which is less complicated and easily converted to OBD1. Most are iron blocks in the US, but the M52 from the 2.8 Z3 is aluminum. 2man did this swap before so he'll be able to give you the specifics.

Swapping the M42 for a 6-cylinder is your call. The 6-cylinder is a bit more nose heavy, but not enough really ruin the car's handling (the e30 325 is a 6 cylinder after all and the 24v doesn't weigh that much more). I had an m42 in my car and went the 24v route because the I was already accustomed to working on the 6-cylinder in my e36 and my friends had a quite a few parts lying around to do the swap. A 318 may weigh a bit less, but to do the swap right means getting a medium case diff and a 6-cylinder transmission on top of the engine itself.

The M42 is a sweet little engine when its running right, but it will nickel and dime you for even a stock rebuild. If your engine is running well, some simple things that can liven up the car would be a chip, flywheel, and maybe more aggressive gearing. For the ITBs, Dbilas and RHD have kits, but they don't come cheap.

[E30 Wagen]

When I was researching those swaps one thing that turned me off about them was having to fit a drive-by-wire gas pedal. Might seem like a minor quibble but I'd just prefer to keep the original gas pedal and throttle cable.

Those swapping in an aluminum 6 generally get a m52 from the 97-98 z3. Even though the power and weight look good on paper, I'd still keep the m42 for the balance, the simplicity, and to preserve the originality and value of the car. Sourcing all the parts for the swap, dealing with brake booster clearance, exhaust, etc, is no small task. The 318is rear valence only has a single tailpipe exhaust opening that you'd want to modify to fit a dual exit muffler, and I just don't like the idea of hacking up factory sheet metal if your car is clean and original. Adding ITBs to any m5x engine purely for the noise is a big waste of time and money.

Not sure how much you've researched modding the m42 or what state your car is in now, but maybe look into a m44/m42 hybrid: https://r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=359475

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7QJ2xGV_3g

Or find a diesel crank from whatever model it is that europe got and build a stroker. Metric Mechanic has information, Jordan is building one for his 318is project, and plenty of others have done this as well. Apparently good for 200hp, so basically a cheaper, maintenance free s14...

Just my .02. I've zero experience doing any of this, just read a lot about it.

[pazi88]

M52tu has thorttle cable even thought it's drive by wire in practise. So no need to worry about swapping thorttle pedal to electric one.

And even thought m52b28tu makes same power as the single vanos one, it's much better engine because the dual vanos system and variable length intake give much more lower end torque than the single vanos cousins. So the car is much faster in normal driving because bigger area under the curve.

[Wanganstyle]

This post has a few question wrapped into one and Its just to fill in the gaps for what my research hasn't turned up. I didn't know which sub forum to post so mods move as you please.

First does a M54 bolt up to a Getrag 240 box?

Is a M52tu swap possible or worth it? I've found very little documentation of it being carried out.

Lastly, am I going down a good path wanting a 6 to replace my M42? I really like the way my car handles in the twisty's and I'm not concerned about tons of straight line power just more torque and more modern platform to Add Itb's too (purely for the sound) So I've learned that a aluminum block M5X family motor will weigh roughly the same as my M42 when mated to the Getrag 240. I know there are few Aluminium block M50's or are they? M52's in the states. And M52TU is much easier to get. That leaves the M54 which I'm sorta leaning to for a swap as its a lot cheaper to do compared to a S54 from my reading. And it ways in the iron block M42 range.

M52TU can be swapped in; I put a M52tu from a 1999 e46 328i into the raze e30 and converted it to run on m50b25tu electronics (1994 325i)


the m52TU is similar to the m54 and share parts; just is of an earlier generation. same chassis application (e46)


the M52tu and M54 can be both converted to single vanos and ran on single vanos electronics if so desired; factory parts make it work.

OBD1 M54/M52TU swap as a M50b25

https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=374572

[TobyB]

I too liked the m42 until I got a car with an m54b30 in it.

Now, I just don't want to mess with anything less...

t

[pazi88]

the M52tu and M54 can be both converted to single vanos and ran on single vanos electronics if so desired; factory parts make it work.

OBD1 M54/M52TU swap as a M50b25

https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho...d.php?t=374572

But why on earth you would get rid of the great features that those dual vanos engines provide and make those much worse by doing that obd1 single vanos conversion.

[Wanganstyle]

Can someone school me on Aluminium block 6's

But why on earth you would get rid of the great features that those dual vanos engines provide and make those much worse by doing that obd1 single vanos conversion.

So drive a e36 328i with a m52b28 compared back to back with a e46 328i m52b28tu is it really that bad?

Compare either with a e30 325i original m20b25 and you will understand why in this actual caged racecar that has about 12 wires in the car I had no desire to install a e throttle pedal or rewire the car to have exhaust side vanos.

The m50-52 engines actually have some advantages vs the m54/52tu;

1. Oem available Single vanos Cams are more aggressive than any double vanos cams; hijacking the cams out of my s52 was in the plans when swapping the alu block m54 engine

2. Factory Oem M50 Intake manifold /m52&s52 exhaust manifolds flow more air top end than any of the m54 manifolds with disa ; this is a actual caged race car with fuel cell that has no street registration; zero desire for Disa that can fail and lunch the engine. No desire for headers that have cats in them either; nor is there any space to work on aftermarket headers or fit them well in a e30 chassis. Anyone who has messed with aftermarket headers in a dohc 6 swapped e30 would know this; even with the m20 a set of long tubes is annoying to work on.

3. Less wiring needed to Adapt to an e30 and the cable throttle can be retained. This actual race car had done 70hrs on the m20b25 then 55hrs on a m52b28 / s52m32 and now has 1 hr on the m52b28 Tu; I wasn’t about to rewire anything at all.

E throttle can make more power but honestly ain’t care. The feeling of a cable throttle is winning

If you would like to volunteer your time to do the labor to convert this horrid Frankenstein car from Single vanos back to double come
Be my guest; have plenty of wiring harnesses and double vanos parts just chillin.

[Motheye99]

Looking at your M54 thread from your Sig, you basically swapped a M50 intake onto a M54 the reasoning being throttle cable and slightly improved flow? This seems like a pretty good balance of light weight M54 block and the simpler M50/M52 swap, Is this correct?

And so now I know that I can put Itb's from a M50 onto a M54. I understand tat this isn't very cost effective, however I like the intake sound and it would require a Mega squirt or some custom tuning.

From my understanding a M54b30+Itb's+tune would net, 260 crank HP? All while weighting close to my M42. Is this a engine setup worth doing? Similar power to a s52 but would weigh less and sound better. Also wouldn't cost much more

So drive a e36 328i with a m52b28 compared back to back with a e46 328i m52b28tu is it really that bad?

Compare either with a e30 325i original m20b25 and you will understand why in this actual caged racecar that has about 12 wires in the car I had no desire to install a e throttle pedal or rewire the car to have exhaust side vanos.

The m50-52 engines actually have some advantages vs the m54/52tu;

1. Oem available Single vanos Cams are more aggressive than any double vanos cams; hijacking the cams out of my s52 was in the plans when swapping the alu block m54 engine

2. Factory Oem M50 Intake manifold /m52&s52 exhaust manifolds flow more air top end than any of the m54 manifolds with disa ; this is a actual caged race car with fuel cell that has no street registration; zero desire for Disa that can fail and lunch the engine. No desire for headers that have cats in them either; nor is there any space to work on aftermarket headers or fit them well in a e30 chassis. Anyone who has messed with aftermarket headers in a dohc 6 swapped e30 would know this; even with the m20 a set of long tubes is annoying to work on.

3. Less wiring needed to Adapt to an e30 and the cable throttle can be retained. This actual race car had done 70hrs on the m20b25 then 55hrs on a m52b28 / s52m32 and now has 1 hr on the m52b28 Tu; I wasn’t about to rewire anything at all.

E throttle can make more power but honestly ain’t care. The feeling of a cable throttle is winning

If you would like to volunteer your time to do the labor to convert this horrid Frankenstein car from Single vanos back to double come
Be my guest; have plenty of wiring harnesses and double vanos parts just chillin.

[hoveringuy]

From my many, many dyno sessions with the M54 I never found power with the exhaust VANOS. It just didn't make a difference, although it's good for economy and emissions which is why it's there.

[pazi88]

From my many, many dyno sessions with the M54 I never found power with the exhaust VANOS. It just didn't make a difference, although it's good for economy and emissions which is why it's there.

It for emission/fuel economy purposes. It has some effect for power but it's very minor. But the intake vanos has bigger adjustment range than single vanos which makes difference for low end torque. And it's pwm controlled instead of on/off in single vanos which makes it turn faster and allows better adjustability for smoother torque curve. And faster movements of dual vanos systems makes the engine much more responsive in low rev range than the slower single vanos can ever be. I have converted my signle vanos in m52 to be pwm controlled using m52tu parts in my turbo e30. And it makes big difference. Below 2500 the single vanos never has time to turn from base position to other end before revs are much higher. Because it can take 2-3s to vanos to switch cam position. But with pwm control it takes only 0.5s even at low rpm. And it makes the car feel like it has bigger displacement engine. And also the with pwm adjusyed vanos it is easy to make turbo spool faster.

[pazi88]

So drive a e36 328i with a m52b28 compared back to back with a e46 328i m52b28tu is it really that bad?

Compare either with a e30 325i original m20b25 and you will understand why in this actual caged racecar that has about 12 wires in the car I had no desire to install a e throttle pedal or rewire the car to have exhaust side vanos.

The m50-52 engines actually have some advantages vs the m54/52tu;

1. Oem available Single vanos Cams are more aggressive than any double vanos cams; hijacking the cams out of my s52 was in the plans when swapping the alu block m54 engine

2. Factory Oem M50 Intake manifold /m52&s52 exhaust manifolds flow more air top end than any of the m54 manifolds with disa ; this is a actual caged race car with fuel cell that has no street registration; zero desire for Disa that can fail and lunch the engine. No desire for headers that have cats in them either; nor is there any space to work on aftermarket headers or fit them well in a e30 chassis. Anyone who has messed with aftermarket headers in a dohc 6 swapped e30 would know this; even with the m20 a set of long tubes is annoying to work on.

3. Less wiring needed to Adapt to an e30 and the cable throttle can be retained. This actual race car had done 70hrs on the m20b25 then 55hrs on a m52b28 / s52m32 and now has 1 hr on the m52b28 Tu; I wasn’t about to rewire anything at all.

E throttle can make more power but honestly ain’t care. The feeling of a cable throttle is winning

If you would like to volunteer your time to do the labor to convert this horrid Frankenstein car from Single vanos back to double come
Be my guest; have plenty of wiring harnesses and double vanos parts just chillin.

By modifying the sw in m52tu and m54 ecus you can make those engines run with same amount of wires to the car than with the single vanos cousins. And you can fully adjust the ecus with 5usd obd cable and free software. Which you can't do with obd1 ecus. And m52tu has thorttle cable so no need to run wires for pedal.

And yes the manifolds with cats are restrictive. But those are easy to be replace with something else. And the dual vanos intakes are not that restrictive that people think. With more agressive cams the max hp difference with m50 intake and m50/m52tu/m54 intaka becomes much smaller. For example m52b28 with m54b30 intake cam makes only 5hp more than with stock intake. But loses 20-30Nm on low end. So at least for street car it is not worth swappingm50 intake if you have better cams. And with dual vanos intakes with disa the low end torque difference can be 30-40Nm. Yes the m50 intake makes marginally more power. But it's not about max hp. It's about area under the curve which tells how fast the car is in practise.

[Wanganstyle]

Can someone school me on Aluminium block 6's

By modifying the sw in m52tu and m54 ecus you can make those engines run with same amount of wires to the car than with the single vanos cousins. And you can fully adjust the ecus with 5usd obd cable and free software. Which you can't do with obd1 ecus. And m52tu has thorttle cable so no need to run wires for pedal.

And yes the manifolds with cats are restrictive. But those are easy to be replace with something else. And the dual vanos intakes are not that restrictive that people think. With more agressive cams the max hp difference with m50 intake and m50/m52tu/m54 intaka becomes much smaller. For example m52b28 with m54b30 intake cam makes only 5hp more than with stock intake. But loses 20-30Nm on low end. So at least for street car it is not worth swappingm50 intake if you have better cams. And with dual vanos intakes with disa the low end torque difference can be 30-40Nm. Yes the m50 intake makes marginally more power. But it's not about max hp. It's about area under the curve which tells how fast the car is in practise.

Zero desire to mess with any computer. Stupid when not needed

My application is not a street car. Application is explained; caged trailer only race car with ridiculous short final drive for actual racing use.

No care for low end power: area under curve is just fine.

No place or reason to play with complex electronics or to make the system even more puzzling to service trackside in the dark.

[pazi88]

I was giving advice in general. Not for 100% purpose build track car. Most of the people are building at least partly street car and then it is different thing. And when doing street car, I don't see any point to downgrade to obd1 single vanos system.

[Wanganstyle]

I was giving advice in general. Not for 100% purpose build track car. Most of the people are building at least partly street car and then it is different thing. And when doing street car, I don't see any point to downgrade to obd1 single vanos system.

Not all care for double vanos like you do; even for street use

Street cars are better just sticking to the Oem engine; a m20b25 is more than enough for the street and average people that own a e30