UUC - Big Brake Kit - Direct Fit caliper, 11.75" rotor

[Rob@UUC]

Lee has a tons of technical comments he will not share publicly. But if Rolla1990 has any technical insight he wishes to share, then put them on your post.

Lee, if you think you've got some great "technical comments", then bring 'em on. I'm thrilled to discuss this in public.

Keeping things to yourself makes it look like you're hiding things, doesn't it?

- Rob Levinson
UUC

[2002maniac]

I think lee is shooting himself in the foot with his comments in this thread. Good to see new products being developed for the e30. Nothing wrong with some competition. I know lee makes good products, but if i were in the market for big brakes and found this thread, i'd buy from uuc.

[Rolla1990]

Don't worry buddy. You had the right reaction. I suggest that other dude (BornIn1990) gets some manners.

I (drive a car that was built in 1990) have manners. Enough manners to not put down a prospective customer. Enough manners, in fact, to not crap all over other people's threads about products that they have spent time, money, and brain power developing.

If there's anything the e30 community needs, it's more innovation and price competition. UUC has obviously brought innovation and competition to the marketplace. This thread was clearly meant to share a new product, and make people aware that another new option exists, but you, sir, have decided to make it into a nit-picking contest about brake caliper paint.. or something?

It seems that you spend a lot of time searching the forums for any new e30 brake product to put down, or at least question under the guise of "technical curiosity". And I know that I am not the only one that has noticed this. While customer input and questions are a wonderful part of researching a new product, it's pretty clear that your "technical curiosity" is nothing more than a way for you to cast unreasonable doubt on your competition.

I applaud both UUC and Lee for making useful and innovative products for us, but some of our vendors seem to have more manners than others. In the long run, this integrity or lack thereof will really decide who gets repeat business and ultimately success in the marketplace.

And you can tell by my post count and join date... I read and research much more than I post. I'm not trolling, I just feel that this needed to be pointed out.

[Rolla1990]

Lee has a tons of technical comments he will not share publicly. But if Rolla1990 has any technical insight he wishes to share, then put them on your post.

Oh I just saw this!

Technical insight? Sure! This brake kit reduces the parts count on an extremely important area of the car (A good thing). This brake kit also uses common, inexpensive parts that are easily sourced (Also a good thing). The UUC kit is also only slightly more expensive than Lee's street kit that requires proprietary rotors and is probably not well suited for track days. And finally? This brake kit is 100% made in the USA (a very good thing in this economy). If I needed to buy a brake kit today, this is the one I would get.

I don't think I have any technical comments that I wouldn't share publicly. Maybe we need another thread where just the brake kit manufacturers can debate the virtues of their wares?

[guibo09]

please guys keep this civil. the back and forth technical stuff was great for everyone, but the pissing contest doesnt help at all.

[dinanm3atl]

So this goes for both applications. UUC is down the road so I could probably go actually touch the stuff and UUC has done me right in the past on my previous track car. With that said it was an E36 M3 and the E30 with the new motor will probably need some better clampers...

I see lots of options for the front pads from both. The question is both claim to have properly biased setup but what sort of rear pad to run? Easy to setup a 'matched' set? My E36 M3 I liked the HT10 or Hawk Blue. All around. Late in the game HT14 Front and HT10 rear. What sort of options for the track? What sort of options for a good street pad with great street performance that has a nice matching rear pad?

Thanks guys.

[Rob@UUC]

So this goes for both applications. UUC is down the road so I could probably go actually touch the stuff and UUC has done me right in the past on my previous track car.

You might even get a ride in a car with our brakes!

With that said it was an E36 M3 and the E30 with the new motor will probably need some better clampers...

I see lots of options for the front pads from both. The question is both claim to have properly biased setup but what sort of rear pad to run? Easy to setup a 'matched' set? My E36 M3 I liked the HT10 or Hawk Blue. All around. Late in the game HT14 Front and HT10 rear. What sort of options for the track? What sort of options for a good street pad with great street performance that has a nice matching rear pad?

Street:

Front DTC-05 option matches well with Hawk Performance Ceramic rear.

Front DTC-30 option matches well with Hawk HP-Plus (this configuration is in my 332i right now - love it!). Should even work well for a light track day. I run R888s on the street and with these pads, you better be wearing your seat belt!

Track:

Front DTC-60 option matches perfectly with DTC-60 rear.

HT-10 is available front and rear, but I prefer DTC-60... you should give it a try, I think you'll like the DTC-60 better also. Hawk cites improved release characteristics and other improvements.

- Rob Levinson
UUC

[dinanm3atl]

Cool. I just used what I was used to. I know there are properly better off there :)

I'll come down for a ride sometime. Take a loot at them.

[guibo09]

so did you whip up the weight specs? how many lbs per wheel does this setup save over stock?

[z31maniac]

The UUC kit is also only slightly more expensive than Lee's street kit that requires proprietary rotors and is probably not well suited for track days.

At the reduced intro price + the 15% weekend special.

At $1099 regular price, what Lee's Sport/Race kits cost, you are getting a better comparison of VALUE.

[Massive Lee]

So, at Rob's request, here's a free consultation. They are simply my personal observations on this new UUC product. This is just about shedding light from somebody who offers five different e30 kits (four front and one rear), and therefore perhaps has a good understanding of the problematic. Be aware it is not a review. Just observations on a new product offered to e30 owners.

Rotors
My first observation was about the obvious strange fit of the pad vs disc. Was it normal that the pad was too tall for the disc (or the disc too shallow for the pad), as displayed by the friction marks extending what seems 1/8" below the disc itself? Or perhaps just a prototype waiting for a better rotor?



Measuring what seems to be Wilwood's low end 160-0471 shows that the friction ring is only 0.5mm taller than the pad, which doesn't leave any margin for the 1mm clearance required at the top to clear the bevelled edge, and the 2mm up and down movement of the pad. Can a more appropriate rotor be used? Not to mention that to help with clearance, the caliper can be lowered a bit to clear the wheel's barrel. That was a free trick to you Rob. ;-)

Back to the 160-0471 disc. It is a light duty, economic disc, with thin wall casting and straight vanes. It costs a whopping $30usd ($34 retail) (http://parts.autoweek.com/productDetail.php?pid=520979). This is a light duty disc. Which lead me to comment on the "value" statement. I don't see value in a $30 disc in a $1099 kit. So... What rotor to substitute? Simple. Wilwood has a $120 ($140 retail) heavy duty rotor with directional vanes - 160-7701 - or slotted - 160-9009 (same price). Increase quality and keep same price, or raise price ($1099 + 2x$90-price difference on rotors) = $1279.00usd with HD rotors - I am not convinced of the better value.

Brake pads
A 12mm pad has a 3.5mm backing plate and 8.5mm of actual material. Acceptable for street duty. While a real track pad like the 7420 shape (Superlite) has a larger backing plate measuring the same 3.5mm thickness, but with 16.5mm of material thickness. In fact it is 225% the amount of compound. Giving more grip (more surface) and a much longer life (much thicker). So basically, if the kit is sold as a street kit, then great. If sold as a track unit, my take is that you may need to bring several sets of pads with you. And they will cost you more than if they were Superlite pads for the same life duration. Same compound pad would be only 60% more expensive for more than double the pad compound (225% exactly).

Comparaison between both types of pads



Caliper
The caliper seemed quite familiar, perhaps even a close copy of the old Dynalite from Wilwood (a caliper that I used to offer in the first months as an option, but stopped soon after as I prefered to concentrate of stiffer calipers for my track customers). Same overall shape, same pad, same old fashion pad mounting with the lower "craddle" on which the pads rest. Same 3.5" mounting holes spacing. Looks like only the mounting lugs were extended. BTW Any reason why the paint doesn't extend to the bottom and is only on the outer shell, not around the piston area? Will it corrode over time? Looks hand painted. Maybe, again, just a prototype. Wouldn't anodizing be a better process? There's no flashy red anodizing, but at least it doesn't trap heat.




That Dynalite caliper has been discontinued about two years ago, and an improved version offered: the Dynapro with narrow and wide mounts. I wonder why copy an old dated design. The same 4 bleeder set-up is used. Why four? Simple. It is an economic way to make a caliper that can be used on both sides of the car. $20 cheaper than a Superlite. Make one caliper only for both sides, and save on machining and inventory. Is it really needed to have 4 bleeders when using internal fluid passages? According to ATE, it is not. Looking at any older BMW caliper with internal fluid passages, it is not needed at all to drill holes at he bottom. I guess they already figured it out properly 40 years ago.

Notice that no bleeder is at the bottom. There are extra bleeders on the "top" because this type of clamper has a safety hydraulic design that allows twin inlets. If one circuit fails, the other takes over. But this is unrelated...



So far, not being impressed by the custom-made caliper. Especially that it was claimed it has less flex than a Superlite caliper. If the caliper is made by Wilwood, they surely have numbers to back-up the claim. If the caliper is made by another manufacturer, then they surely should proudly let us know how better it is. A claim I have a hard time believing. Because anyone who has tracked with a Dynalite and and Superlite will attest that the Superlite is clearly much far stiffer. Most if not all old school VW, Honda or BMW BBKs were made around the Dynalite caliper because it was ... cheap. But certainly not stiff. For years I have suggested racers to swap their old Dynalite for a Superlite, and always had a very positive feedback on the swap. And I was not selling the calipers. Just suggesting them.

Hat
That new kit's hat is flat and brings the outer face of the rotor even further out than Massive's thicker Race kit with a whopping 11.75" x 1.25" disc. Meaning that Massive's Sport kit (below UUC's) which uses a disc of the same 11.75" x 0.81" dimension is at least (32mm - 21mm) 11mm more inward (I think it is more like 13mm). That's close to half an inch extra lateral clearance. So, design wise, what is the idea to push the rotor so far out? My conclusion to this question is simple: maybe to clear the caliper's mounting lugs. Mounting the rotor a few millimeters more inward would have meant the lugs would have been thinner, and weaker. But hey, that's only a technical assumption. Don't take my word for that. Another possibility is perhaps to clear the backing plates. But honestly, who has seen a tracked e30 with their backing plates still installed? That is the first item to be removed when car is tracked. It is designed to keep rotors hot by bouncing radiant heat back onto the discs. Great for driving around town. Not so for track duty.




On e30Tech, somebody asked why include brakelines? After all, not everyone needs to buy new lines when fresh lines had been just installed. Basically it is paying for stuff sometimes not needed. Hardly promoting the "value" aspect of the kit. Rob's reply was that because the inlet location was in a much different place, it was required to get different brakelines, and they had to have different fittings so that people don't swap lines "by mistake".

"The input point on our caliper is in a different position than the OE, so we provide SS lines. For that reason, they are deliberately a different fitting so that nobody can accidentally put on the wrong lines."

Really? My experience for the past few years has been that the side inlet location is 100% compatible with BMW-spec stainless braided lines. Just get the proper 1/8npt-to-10mm fitting. And you won't have to stuff $100 worth of unrequired brake lines. Especially that if a line blows at the track, due to an off track excursion (per exemple), using stock spec brakelines will allow to have anybody in the paddocks lend you a brakeline to finish the weekend. Try to find a custom brakeline... Pack up and go home.

All in all. It is great that several suppliers have new parts for the 25 years old e30 chassis. There will be parts of different purposes for everyone. And everyone will be happy, as long as they pick the proper parts for their intended duty and that they are to the buyer's liking.

[guibo09]

thanks for getting the discussion back on track lee. this is exactly what the community needs, a professional discussion.

i just looked at your caliper offerings, and they seem to have 4 bleeders also. so why are you hating on the 4 bleeders in UUC's kit?

[Miasma]

Well this thread has 100% shown me who to purchase from.

[Massive Lee]

thanks for getting the discussion back on track lee. this is exactly what the community needs, a professional discussion

Thanks for the good word. Hopefully we can be constructive.

As for the 4 bleeder Dynapro. Only one of my kits has them. The entry level, econo kit based on the VW Corrado disc. $750usd with pads. I didn't commissionned anybody to make a custom caliper. I used whatever was available from Wilwood. And the kit is sold as a Street kit. That kit is also available as just a simple pair of nickel plated brackets, hydraulic fittings and thin alu spacers for people who already have used Dynalite or Dynapro. Buy your own rotors and pads. And you have a cheapo kit,yet better than stock. I am not bragging about it. ;-)

[Rob@UUC]

so did you whip up the weight specs?

Total weight (caliper + pads + rotor + hat + lines): 14.6lbs.