Best bang for the buck brake upgrade.

[Massive Lee]

Best bang for the buck is good pads for your application (auto-x HP+, or HT-10 at the track, or spring for carbotech, etc.) and SS lines. Don't believe the hype over you needing a BBK from a guy selling the BBKs!

If you go to track events, there's majority of E30s with stock rotors and good pads and they run fast! Generally it is the fuh raze guys who don't have much experience but want the bling factor that opt for BBKs, thinking that they are "needed"

That's quite a statement you have here.

Sooooo... Have you ever driven an e30 with a BBK? Do you know anybody who's tracking an e30 with a BBK? Or are you only talking out of assumptions? You also seem to fail to understand that the e30 spes serie racers have stock brakes just because that's the spec. Wait until the day the option is open. I wonder how many guys will stick to stockies... ;-)

To the OP. RobK is 100% right, don't listen to the guy who makes those BBKs. Instead ask his clients directly...

[rwh11385]

That's quite a statement you have here.

Sooooo... Have you ever driven an e30 with a BBK? Do you know anybody who's tracking an e30 with a BBK? Or are you only talking out of assumptions? You also seem to fail to understand that the e30 spes serie racers have stock brakes just because that's the spec. Wait until the day the option is open. I wonder how many guys will stick to stockies... ;-)

To the OP. RobK is 100% right, don't listen to the guy who makes those BBKs. Instead ask his clients directly...

Wow. And then again, I can't really be surprised by your repeated antics.

You're just trying to sell your wares. I didn't say anything about SpecE30 and am not usually around NASA because of their trains. BMWCCA track events have a whole lot of members running stock rotors and do not buy into hype by idiots who are obsessed with FUH RAZE bling parts or vendors pushing their products on people... they could run whatever they want but most are intelligent enough to know that good pads are great bang for buck and BBKs are not as necessary as the guy who sells them would like people to think.

[Massive Lee]

Wow. And then again, I can't really be surprised by your repeated antics.

You're just trying to sell your wares. I didn't say anything about SpecE30 and am not usually around NASA because of their trains. BMWCCA track events have a whole lot of members running stock rotors and do not buy into hype by idiots who are obsessed with FUH RAZE bling parts or vendors pushing their products on people... they could run whatever they want but most are intelligent enough to know that good pads are great bang for buck and BBKs are not as necessary as the guy who sells them would like people to think.

You're a funny guy, dude. It looks like you are on mission on a soapboax, preaching your views. But hey, to each his own battles. Good luck in your personal crusade against the evil BBKs BTW Go tell Brembo, AP Racing, Alcon and Performance Friction they are useless...

[rwh11385]

You're a funny guy, dude. It looks like you are on mission on a soapboax, preaching your views. But hey, to each his own battles. Good luck in your personal crusade against the evil BBKs BTW Go tell Brembo, AP Racing, Alcon and Performance Friction they are useless...

You're the one on the soapbox trying to convince everyone to buy your brakes. You act like an unscrupulous salesman every possible thread.

You are in a thread asking for the best bang for buck. If a driver can lock up the wheels (brakes can apply more torque than the tires can put down) and there is no fade, then what benefit would a bigger rotors provide? (besides visual or a lighter wallet)

BBKs have their place if someone does run into thermal management issues and need a larger heatsink, but you're trying to say that everyone could benefit from your products and they have great bang for buck. LMAO. If someone has good pads, a good bleed, and good lines, and is experiencing no fade at the track then BBK will do nothing performance wise.

But damn, they will have something neat to post about in Member's Rides and you'll have money in your pocket and they'll have less to do any events with.

[Massive Lee]

"You act like a shady ass fucker and should stop trying to cram your shit down everyone's throat."

Thanks Rob for expressing your point of view. I guess it clearly shows your level of maturity. But I still prefer to explain how brakes work just so that everyone can draw their own conclusion. Hopefully it will allow people to judge by themselve.

COMPONENTS OF A BRAKE SYSTEM AND THEIR FUNCTION

ROTORS
1- They are simple heatsinks allowing to momentarily absorb heatbursts caused by the friction between the pads and the disc. The heavier the rotors, the more heat they can absorb before reaching a certain stress level. Stress usually shows up as cracks on the disc. Surface cracks are normal. When your nail starts feeling them, think of changing your discs.

2- Discs are also physical levers. Per exemple, a 300mm disc has 15% more leverage than a 260mm. So, basically, you can see the improvements is not as huge as people think. The gain though is in heat absorbtion capacity.

3- Discs are also defined by the angle of the fins between the two friction surfaces. Directional vanes will act as turbines. They will draw air from the center, toward the outside, and will greatly help cooling the rotors. While straight vanes are "static" and don't promote cooling unless used with forced air from brake ducts.

4- Discs also are defined by the air gap. The gap between the two friction surfaces. These channels allow air to pass, and take away the heat accumulated by the rotors. The bigger the air gap, the more air can circulate, and the more heat can be evacuated. Therefore, two rotors of the same diameter, but one being 21mm thick and the other 32mm, will have the same leverage but different heat evacuation capacities.

CALIPERS
1- They act as a vice. You want them to be stiff so that whatever input is fed from the brake pedal is entirely transmitted to the pads. If the caliper is soft, some of the input will be lost in the caliper's flexing. Which is where you loose modulation of the brakes. When you press the brake pedal, you want as much as possible of the hydraulic pressure to be applied on the pads, not flexing the calipers.

2- Calipers have pistons made from various materials. Some will instantly transmit the heat from the pads to the fluid on the other end of the pistons. The worst material is aluminum, then steel. Titanium and stainless steel are know to transmit less heat. They act as heat barriers, which translates into a cooler brake fluid. Stainless steel is also much harder than aluminum or steel, allowing to NOT use dust boots. As is often seen, rubber doesn't stand heat much. It will melt or crack, allowing dust and water to scratch or rust the aluminum or steel pistons.

3- The pistons in the calipers are available in various sizes. Allowing to custom tailor your brake system. Front-only kit, front-and-rear, boosterless. The combinations are numerous.

BRAKE PADS
1- They create the type of friction you need to transform your car's kinetic energy into heat, which translates into reduce movement and speed. They have various specificities regarding their temp operating range, affecting the amount of friction they can produce. Each compound will also have a different "attack and release" specificity that should be adapted to the type of rubber, driving or weather condition.

2- The "braking power" that peoples feel comes mostly from the pads. From a "soft" pad to an agressive one, you can double the friction. Which is where the stopping power is felt. Basically, pad selection will affect more the braking than simply increasing rotor size. But don't forget that you must absorb that heat and get rid of it too.

3- Pads for OEM BMW calipers are usually more expensive than pads for a widely produced generic caliper. The more pads are made, the cheaper they get. I wonder how many sets of performance pads is made yearly for e30 calipers, versus, say, a Wilwood Superlite caliper, which is widely used in motorsport in North America. They call it economy of scale.

So, basically, how do the stock e30 brake system ranks within these generic specs?

[rwh11385]

So, basically, how do the stock e30 brake system ranks within these generic specs?

If a driver uses his car how he intends to and doesn't experience fade, then the rotor and heatsink is large enough for his needs. Telling him he needs larger rotors at the point is lying. There are many people who track E30s or Auto-X them and are satisfied with well-maintained stock equipment and upgraded pads.

If a driver has more torque in brakes than the tires can trasmit into static friction stopping, there is no more need for additional leverage. Telling him he needs larger rotors is false until other aspects of the setup change (more grip in tires).

2- The "braking power" comes mostly from the pads. From a "soft" pad to an agressive one, you can double the friction. Which is where the stopping power is felt. Basically, pad selection will affect more that feel than simply increasing rotor size. But don't forget that you must absorb that heat and get rid of it too.

Exactly why I said upgrading pads is the best bang for buck. If there are no heat issues then the need is covered.

3- Pads for OEM BMW calipers are usually more expensive than pads for a widely produced generic caliper.

Yes, spend $1000 to save $20 (?) on a pair of brake pads. Makes a lot of sense for a street car with some Auto-X and once in a while track maybe (your typical R3V poster).

Methinks you made my point for me.

Why not focus on allowing the consumer to determine if they really need a bigger rotors instead of trying to sell them to everyone? Pushing them down everyone's throat like you did in response to my post just makes you seem greedy and biased.

Wait until the day the option is open. I wonder how many guys will stick to stockies...

Trying to make it seem like only SpecE30 guys would stick to stock, yet many people do even if they have open options because they don't see a good ROI on a BBK.

[lifeiskaos]

You're arguing with Heeter, not RobK ;)

[Massive Lee]

Methinks you made my point for me.

Me thinks you don't read or don't understand.

Add grabbier pads to increase braking power will work temporarely. Until the rotors and calipers are heat soaked. And fluid starts boiling. Which is exactly the weak point of the e30 brakes and why the e30 M3 received e28 brakes.

Read again. You'll understand how brakes work. Creating friction is only 1/3 of the job. And still waiting for apologies for your inappropriate language. ;-)

[rwh11385]

Me thinks you don't read or don't understand.

Add grabbier pads to increase braking power will work temporarely. Until the rotors and calipers are heat soaked. And fluid starts boiling.

Read again. You'll understand how brakes work ;-) Creating friction is only 1/3 of the job.

Yeah, and being the one selling the solution to that you are claiming that everyone will run into heatsoak and boiled fluid? Pretty hefty claim there.

[pogiboy9]

You guys are threadjacking now...the OP hasn't even responded anymore...

And it would really depend on his actual application and his driving style .... Stocks are just fine for 24v IMO, especially with a good set of Pads and Rotors. Mine run fun with my Hawk HP+ and want to see the feeling change with upgrade to larger MC and then if not satisfied the booster as well.

But the cost of Danny's kit he's selling and if you gather up the parts for the RX-7/Coro combo is so cheap that if you felt it wasn't worth it sell it for the cost and buy a BBK...if it works out great then you just spent a few bucks for great return.

[dinanm3atl]

I think many would be surprised at just how good a set of stainless lines, fresh fluids, set of cheap blanks and a quality set of pads. It really is a GOOD upgrade. Running around on Axxis ultimates that were pad slapped... not so much.

Try a good set of brakes using the OEM setup. You might be surprised.


*edit*


Boiling brake fluid? Heat soaked rotors? I have watched my old boss in an M20 e30 literally drive the wheels off an E30 with blanks and Hawk Blues. No boiling fluid(they do make quality fluid as well) and didn't have a problem. He was scooting and very abusive to the car and quite the late braker. I understand that there is a need for some for a BBK for a variety of reasons. However I can say with almost certainty that the HPDE, daily driver, track guy, auto-x and the like it is not required and not a 'bang for the buck' upgrade.

I honestly think the HPDE has become a place for many to show off how fuh raze they have made their car. When I started it was a lot of stock cars. Maybe some go fast mods with street tires. Now everyone from D Students up into instructors is on R Comps. BBKs galore. Massive wings and aero. Stripped out daily drivers with fixed backs. Getting a little overboard IMO.

[rwh11385]

I think many would be surprised at just how good a set of stainless lines, fresh fluids, set of cheap blanks and a quality set of pads. It really is a GOOD upgrade. Running around on Axxis ultimates that were pad slapped... not so much.

Try a good set of brakes using the OEM setup. You might be surprised.

Solid post.

But BMW went with a larger rotor on their homologation race car... so stock non-M E30 components cannot possibly be up to the task for most of R3V!

Edit: Good to see someone else can attest to fast drivers being happy with stock components without issue at the track, as well as concern for FUH RAZE modifications just to be cool at HPDEs. I rarely agree with dinanm3atl haha, but right with him here.

[dinanm3atl]

Solid post.

But BMW went with a larger rotor on their homologation race car for winning championships... so stock non-M E30 components cannot possibly be up to the task!

Edit: Good to see someone else can attest to fast drivers being happy with stock components without issue at the track, as well as concern for FUH RAZE modifications just to be cool at HPDEs. I rarely agree with dinanm3atl haha, but right with him here.

Cause the M3 was sold to those that wanted a 'racecar for the street'. So it had to have bigger brakes... :hitler:


Here is the thing. Many overlook basic things like brake cooling. The e30 doesn't have very good cooling. So spend some money on additional cooling and run stock sized with track pads. And now it isn't 'a couple of laps' and you have lost your brake feel. Cooling is often overlooked. Many will say they were cooking their stock brakes so they went with a BBK and it 'fixed' the problem. No real research done but they will post on the forums about how the BBK fixed their fading issue... in reality some tubing and a bracket would also have fixed their problem along with a pad upgrade...

I cannot tell you how many times while driving the M3 at track events people would come up and see what was done to my car and ask why I was still running 'stock brakes'. Well I wouldn't call HT14/HT10 combo 'stock' but I was stopping with those with BBKs and then passing them on the straights but maybe I should spring for those BBKs.


I will say that for my current E30 I did purchase a BBK. It wasn't out of a neccisity though. I wanted it for the bling factor. Sue me. I want a nice daily E30 with some juice under the hood and cool mods. So I got it.

[rwh11385]

RE: People coming up - happens all the time that people judge your intelligent choices with an uneducated frame of reference. (i.e. only shiny bling upgrades can work well).

Fortunately for Lee, the more assuming people that think BBKs are the only way to go or are "needed", the better for his business. Unfortunately, R3V has some people like the few who have posted in the thread who share the voice of reason... which probably upsets the slimy bugger.

[Brian D]

I will say that for my current E30 I did purchase a BBK. It wasn't out of a neccisity though. I wanted it for the bling factor. Sue me. I want a nice daily E30 with some juice under the hood and cool mods. So I got it.

Thank you. Exactly what I am doing. I know Heeter will sneer, but I think I'll live.

Lee, you're arguing with a guy that lives for this shit. It just makes you look bad, IMO.

I'd say this was a thread hijack, but honestly, how many of these idiotic "bang for the buck" threads do we have to suffer through? This has been covered about 1000 times before. You guys that can't search stir up more shit, I swear...

'bout done here...