Best bang for the buck brake upgrade.

[dinanm3atl]

You know you are a real 'car guy' when you hit the brakes and a cloud of dust comes out of the wheels along with sparks followed by a horrible SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCHHHH...

[rwh11385]

You know you are a real 'car guy' when you hit the brakes and a cloud of dust comes out of the wheels along with sparks followed by a horrible SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCHHHH...

Haha. Hawk HP+'s for five years. I was an intern and had a boss ride with me to lunch out as a group... somewhere between the GC's and Hawks, he got another ride back to the office.


Thanks Rob! I look forward to giving them a try and have good expectations, should work out well.

[Rob@UUC]

You know you are a real 'car guy' when you hit the brakes and a cloud of dust comes out of the wheels along with sparks followed by a horrible SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCHHHH...

That's how I scare away the roadside deer. Big fire show.

If anyone is not familiar with how cold race pads light up...

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=29456&id=1556430516&l=5f63c36acf

[monty23psk]

Rob, what is your take on my post? I ask because of what I want you might be able to give me some insight. I am also looking to upgrade to 5-lug and might go the m3 e30 route but tha is another topic. Looks like I will try these Hawk pads next time I need to get brakes.

[monty23psk]

Those pics are awesome.

[dinanm3atl]

Rob... will my E30 do that? Cause it would be awesome.

[Rob@UUC]

Rob, what is your take on my post? I ask because of what I want you might be able to give me some insight.

Okay, let's review your list:

1. Basic Brake Replacement (new OE pads, new OE rotors, brake bleed standard DOT4 fluid)

A good idea for regular maintenance no matter what.


2. Upgrade to SS lines (I use UUC)

A really good idea for improved pedal modulation, etc.


3. Upgrade to better pads (I use Porterfields R-4S)

Still along a good path.

4. Upgrade Brake fluid to highter temp (I use Pentosin Racing Brake Fluid), and flush every 2 years or as needed

If there is performance/track driving in the plan, a good idea. Before starting the refresh on any car, back at step 1, analyzing your long-term plans would save you money instead of re-doing stuff like that.

5. Rebuild OE Calipers (Done with OEM kits)

Sure, that or buying the affordable rebuilt units from various sources is easier for some people.

6. Introduce brake cooling ex. brake ducts

Again, if there is performance/track driving in the plan, a good idea.

7. Upgrade rear rotors to vented version (not sure how easy with OEM setup)

Not really necessary. Rears don't get that hot on the E30... the car is fairly light.

8. Upgrade MC (I used the e30 m3)

Normally I wouldn't see the point at all (see my earlier post). If your system is in good condition, you should have a good, firm pedal with the standard master cylinder.

9. Upgrade front rotors

To...? As I posted previously, all good quality OE-size/type rotors are going to work the same (except for the downgrade to drilled, bad idea).

10. Upgrade front calipers
11. Upgrade rear calipers

To...?

12. Upgrade to 2-piece front rotors

Useful for shedding a couple of lbs, but no performance difference with all other factors the same.

13.

At this point, if you've refreshed everything, used high-temp fluid and pads, etc., and you are still not satisfied with the braking performance... you've gone as far as you can with the OE setup. It's then it is time to consider a BBK.

I'll give you the spiel because you're asking...

Quoting a bit from our website FAQ, the question is "Do I Really Need a BBK?"

There are those that say "naaah, you don't need a big brake kit… just get more aggressive pads for your original brakes, and you'll be fine. Big brakes are a waste of money!"


But is this really accurate? The answer is a clear "There are indeed many compelling reasons that a performance brake kit may be right for you.".

The advantages of a brake kit are readily apparent with just a little bit of analysis:


1. More disk and pad area/thickness equals better functionality without aggressive pads.


This means that with the same pads, the brake system can go through the energy conversion cycle (kinetic energy to heat energy, and then dissipate the heat energy) of braking much more efficiently. The "aggressive pads" recommendations means "dusty" or "squealing" pads for street use, or "chews through rotors" or "does not work well when cold" for track use. In this one aspect, a big brake kit gives the functionality of the "aggressive pads" with the benefits of a milder pad.


2. Repeatability of performance


Besides the general idea of better heat management, heat issues affect other aspects of the braking system. In addition to simply being able to withstand harder use, a performance brake kit will be able to deliver the performance over and over without overheating. While a standard brake setup may be able to accomplish a "hero" stop from high speed once, the performance brake kit will do it again and again without overheating the pads, rotors, calipers, or fluid.


3. Lighter weight.


The majority of brake kits use some type of cast aluminum caliper. With some (not all), the total weight of the new calipers and new rotors is less than the original brakes, which use an inexpensive but heavy cast iron design. As a specific example, the UUC E30 Big Brake Kit saves 4.1lbs per corner. Yep, more brakes, less weight. For a racecar, this is a significant amount of weight. For a street car, it is still significant enough for sensitive drivers to notice.


4. Better pedal feel and feedback.


The key to a good relationship is communication. For the relationship between driver and car that makes for good performance driving, "talking" is equally critical. The difference between a performance brake kit's calipers and the standard calipers is a fundamental change in the basic design. A performance brake kit uses a "fixed" caliper that is rigidly mounted, the only moving part being the pistons that clamp the pads against the rotors. In contrast, the standard calipers use a "sliding" design for economy that moves the entire caliper to clamp the rotor. The caliper itself moves on rubber-isolated guide pins, and the flex and looseness of these rubber guide bushings is what gives the standard calipers a soft or mushy feel which is also affected by heat and wear. As such, the difference in performance driving (where the brakes will expectedly get hot) is dramatically apparent. The performance brake kit is capable of much finer modulation and control. Good performance brakes "talk" to the driver. The analogy can be made that performance brakes are like playing the piano normally, compared to standard brakes as playing the piano while wearing gloves.


5. Lower operating costs.


This may seem counter-intuitive, that once the initial price hurdle is overcome, using a performance brake kit can be cheaper than using standard brakes. First of all, the oversized components last longer because they are less stressed than the standard components. Secondly, in the UUC kit, consumables such as pads are usually less expensive than the standard equivalents by 15%-30%, and replacement rotor discs are comparable or less expensive, depending on the manufacturer.



Looking further at the simplistic "naaah, you don't need a big brake kit" statement, let's consider what we do with our cars and what it is that the performance driver actually needs.


Does your car need stickier tires, performance suspension, or motor upgrades?


You don't need any of this if all you are doing is using the car as basic transportation. You don't need a BMW at all when a basic Chevy Cobalt will comfortably and reliably transport five adults anywhere you like. For comparison, pure "performance cars" such as Porsches and Ferraris always have standard equipment brakes of the same type as aftermarket brake kits offered for BMW. Those manufacturers are not making any concessions, they are simply delivering performance. Unfortunately, as BMWs have to appeal to a broader customer base, some without performance needs, we BMW owners get shorted in that category.


But you buy a BMW for a reason. Hopefully it's the good "I enjoy a performance car" reason. And in generally, those that have sought a performance car also continue to seek ways to get more performance.



"Wanting better" is an ongoing quest, not a destination.

Maybe not everyone needs brakes with a higher level of capability, but enthusiasts, performance drivers, and racecar drivers who honestly evaluate the benefits usually realize that they do need performance brakes. Except for the racing classes that require standard brakes, the racers that consistently win are quite happily using aperformance brake kit. For the UUC kits in general, this is represented as an ongoing series of class wins in various venues such as BMW CCA, NASA, and SCCA racing and autocross.

I am also looking to upgrade to 5-lug and might go the m3 e30 route but that is another topic.

My short answer: don't bother. Unless you've decided E30 M3 brakes will solve your problem, you are gaining nothing other than unsprung weight and a lighter wallet. E30 M3 brakes are a little bigger than regular E30 brakes, but far from worth the cost. Typically spending $1000-$2000 for E30 M3 hubs/spindles/calipers/rotors and wheels is less effective than spending $850 on a proper BBK.

Looks like I will try these Hawk pads next time I need to get brakes.

I am certain you will be happy with them, as long as you choose the right type of Hawk pad for your intended use.

[Rob@UUC]

Rob... will my E30 do that? Cause it would be awesome.

If the pads are cold and you give them a hard jab... oh yeah. Not quite as much as in those pics (those are Hawk DTC-70), but you'll get some sparkly action.

[graphikg]

I wanted to thank all for their posts. Very informative thread. I should have actually clarified my situation.

I have an S50 in my e30 and before I got the swap, I already did the Susp upgrade (Billy sport, HR Race, offset bushings, GC plates, and all the new steering components - yay for me), I also have already done some brake work (New rotors, EBC pads - I know, I will do hawk or r4s next time, and brake bleed plus the upgraded MC and booster due to the swap). I also bought a caliper rebuild kit to get those OE ones back to fresh. So I think I was on the right path.

However, since the option has arisen with having the larger calipers (Mazda 4 piston) and I got them both used at the junky for a good price, I was wondering if it would be worht the upgrade and make a diff in results. I am by no means, unsatisfied with the stock brakes with new rotors and pads with a good bleed. I also believe they stop the s50 just fine, but since the 4 pistons are so cheap, I decided that they would not be such a bad idea.

I know perfectly well, that even the stock e30 brake capabilities can handle the track (with the right pads etc). But since the 4 pistons are cheap (and do have a little more "bling factor" because of size) I was wondering if people think it is a good "bang for buck." I personally think it might be, because if I dont like them - I figured I could still sell them.

But because of going through this process, the challenge now is piecing it together with the lowest budget, and making sure they fit under my wheels - both my Remembers and TRM C1s

[Massive Lee]

Rebuilt RX7 calipers and Corrado rotors will be a great DIY improvement over stock if you install proper pads. Make sure they fit your wheels.

As I said in my initial post, it will be a great improvement over stock. Stiffer caliper, larger heatsinks. But it seems that not everyone agreed that stock brakes were NOT the ultimate...

[monty23psk]

Thanks Rob. Always coming through and learning so much. So far my experience with your products and customer service have been great and trust me, it will continue from my end on other products.

I know I have done the basics and and the reason for my MC upgrade was because my original went bad. So far the car to me brakes awesome. But with other upgrades in mind, not just brakes, I am trying to tie everything in together. I eventually want better brakes and next on the chain is the e30 m3 brakes, which is better then e30 stock. But like you said, requires more than just calipers. Then it would be to move on to BBK. I do have an overall look I want, and the wheels I would like, are 5-lug. I know this is more for bling but in the end it is just personal taste. Personally I don't care for e36 5-lug and prefer the e30 m3 5-lug for geometric reasons. Also going this route will still give me options for BBKs.

Regarding a BBK spiel, your second point is one that interests me and would one that drive my reason for a BBK regarding useful factor. Since I would like to do more that just 'agressive' street driving, a BBK would be in the future. Yes the bling factor is nice also, as having good quality as a whole on a car is what I like to obtain, from engine to interior.

Thanks for all the help. I know need to figure out my suspension so I can then match the brakes to it.