Recommendations on bushings

[Northern]

If I were going to use my bushings to beat with a ball peen, then yes, I would stay away from UHMW stuff. Fortunately, that's not what they're being used for.



My iX has a full set of Revshift 95a bushings in the rear, and they ride nicely. They're firm, but not uncomfortable. I plan on replacing the crappy no-name poly bushings in my iS with Revshift's subframe riser setup, as it is becoming more of a daily than I used to want.

On the otherhand, if I ever get around to my M3, it will get the condor subframe riser treatment, because I've yet to hear a complaint about them, and I definitely want to try their motor mounts.

[totheredline]

My buddy has a full set of condor bushings on his car. I think theyve been on the car for over a year now. I havent talkied to him in a while but he loves them so I went and got M3 offset FCABs, RTABs and Subframe bushings from Condor. If I ever get my engine back in Ill actually get to see how it drives with them! I can say that they seem like a very good product for a very reasonable price.

[Jonny Cash]

[QUOTE=Cletonius;3967877]Nobody is bashing condor... They're talking about structural properties of materials.[/

Lol I know, everyone's a scientist or an engineer nowadays.

[silence]

Interesting comments. theres a lot of good info here and a lot that's untrue.
A couple comments about some of the questions asked

But it is in no way an adequate replacement for a weld-in setup. Ask any decent spec-racer, race-prep shop, etc...... including Condor.

Our 12mm Riser bushings are designed for the street. Its a simple solution to reduce camber for guys that don't want to mess with the weld-in plates and adjusters. We've had great feedback from them. If you have a Track car, you don't need the 12mm riser bushings... get the regular bushings and the weld in adjuster plates.

SkiFree has is right.

UMHW has very poor compression set. This means that when it is deformed it does not return to its original shape and size. If you hit UMHW with a hammer it will dent. Most types of polyurethane used for automotive bushings have good compression set characteristics which means they return to their original shape after being deformed. Hit polyurethane with a hammer, no dent!
The 75D polyurethane that we use has a higher tensile strength than UMHW as well.
As was said before, UHMW is cheap and easy to machine. It is a poor choice for automotive isolators because it has poor physical properties. You can search the internet for general physical properties of both materials and see for yourself. The scientific data doesn't lie.
Just to be clear, what I am saying is not brand marketing. I just want to get the facts straight. I like polyurethane for a bunch of reasons. I think it is a great material for aftermarket mounts and bushings.

You are incorrect in some of your comments.
First of all UHMW is a very tough material, with the highest impact strength of any thermoplastic presently made. When you strike it with a hammer, it does leave a dent. You can hit it hard as hell, and it will leave a tiny little dent. Seriously, its tiny. Im not sure why this matters. When its installed as a bushing it never sees any hard impacts... Its main use it to stiffen the suspension and keep the moving parts from deflecting under load...

The two materials are very similar. Their hardness properties are similar and their vibration absorption is similar. Those are the two things that matter to our consumers (How Hard is it? How much will it Vibrate?) Well there are other questions, but these are the big 2. Its all about preference. Some people prefer poly, some prefer UHMW. The main difference in the two is UHMW is has better friction properties... this allows the aluminum inside our RTABS to rotate freely without any type of binding or squeaking. THere is no need to add grease. It is also Water/Chemical Resistant. Moisture has no affect on HDPE, this means it wont swell with the weather, changing fitment, which could cause problems. Its properties are maintained even at extremely low temperatures. The main reason we chose UHMW is for its ability absorb vibration while still maintaining its hardness.

Tensile Strength- Tensile strength is a measure of the amount of force required to break a 1/2 square inch area of foam as it is pulled apart. Tensile strength is expressed in pounds per square inch (psi). The tensile sample is die cut to a dumbbell shaped, 6” x l” x 0.5” thick.

Not sure why this is relevant, but yes the tensile strength of UHMW is lower than that of poly. As stated before, our engine mounts have not seen 1 failure to this day…

You are correct, UHMW is affordable but getting it CNC machined is not. Condor machines all our parts here in the USA. We support the Country we live in. We keep an eye on quality. I personally check every product run, and won't ever outsource to China.

-Carlos

[Roysneon]

Subframe jacked up:

It seems you must be missiong some of the spacers/washers from the top of the bushing.

[sweet3]

Finally got around to installing my subframe riser kit from Condor. They look great. Got them a few weeks ago lol. So far so good! :)
BTW, any tips for the original spacer/washer that is located above the original subframe bushing?
Leave it off or put it on top or bottom of the CSS bushing? Thanks

[FLG]

Finally got around to installing my subframe riser kit from Condor. They look great. Got them a few weeks ago lol. So far so good! :)
BTW, any tips for the original spacer/washer that is located above the original subframe bushing?
Leave it off or put it on top or bottom of the CSS bushing? Thanks

Yes, put it back there lol.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

[tinkerputzer]

Yeah put them back on. On top though.

[silence]

Yes, make sure you put it back on top.

[sweet3]

Thanks a lot for the responses :)

[SkiFree]

Interesting comments. theres a lot of good info here and a lot that's untrue.
A couple comments about some of the questions asked



Our 12mm Riser bushings are designed for the street. Its a simple solution to reduce camber for guys that don't want to mess with the weld-in plates and adjusters. We've had great feedback from them. If you have a Track car, you don't need the 12mm riser bushings... get the regular bushings and the weld in adjuster plates.



You are incorrect in some of your comments.
First of all UHMW is a very tough material, with the highest impact strength of any thermoplastic presently made. When you strike it with a hammer, it does leave a dent. You can hit it hard as hell, and it will leave a tiny little dent. Seriously, its tiny. Im not sure why this matters. When its installed as a bushing it never sees any hard impacts... Its main use it to stiffen the suspension and keep the moving parts from deflecting under load...

The two materials are very similar. Their hardness properties are similar and their vibration absorption is similar. Those are the two things that matter to our consumers (How Hard is it? How much will it Vibrate?) Well there are other questions, but these are the big 2. Its all about preference. Some people prefer poly, some prefer UHMW. The main difference in the two is UHMW is has better friction properties... this allows the aluminum inside our RTABS to rotate freely without any type of binding or squeaking. THere is no need to add grease. It is also Water/Chemical Resistant. Moisture has no affect on HDPE, this means it wont swell with the weather, changing fitment, which could cause problems. Its properties are maintained even at extremely low temperatures. The main reason we chose UHMW is for its ability absorb vibration while still maintaining its hardness.

Tensile Strength- Tensile strength is a measure of the amount of force required to break a 1/2 square inch area of foam as it is pulled apart. Tensile strength is expressed in pounds per square inch (psi). The tensile sample is die cut to a dumbbell shaped, 6” x l” x 0.5” thick.

Not sure why this is relevant, but yes the tensile strength of UHMW is lower than that of poly. As stated before, our engine mounts have not seen 1 failure to this day…

You are correct, UHMW is affordable but getting it CNC machined is not. Condor machines all our parts here in the USA. We support the Country we live in. We keep an eye on quality. I personally check every product run, and won't ever outsource to China.

-Carlos

Nothing John or I have said is bashing Condor as a company, and I appreciate your relatively non-aggressive response. As we've alluded to UMHW does have its virtues, however to ignore its faults is doing the consumer a disservice.

1) As you pointed out the impact resistance is not a game changer, what is a problem is the fact that umhw behaves similar to a plastic where it deforms and doesn't return to it's original shape, this means that bushings that see consistent rotational force applied will begin to ovalize. This has been proven most dramatically several years ago on the front 2002 suspension (I handled one of these setups myself 4 years ago or so). This means that mounts made from umhw are not inherently flawed, it's the bushings that I have a problem with.

2) While the 12mm sub frame bushings might seem like a decent solution for rear camber/toe. I disagree that's even close to an adequate fix, even on a road car. For one example Randy's made a jig for the z3 arms which are a good 10-15 years newer than the E30's and the results leave a little to be desired.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2003902-M-Coupe-e36-2000-rear-alignment&highlight=z3+trailing+arm+jig

3) Claiming that UMHW is similar to urethane in terms of ride harshness is an extreme stretch. It might hold water if you're comparing a very stiff 110 durometer urethane with umhw. But given the standard street application 80a urethane, there is a big difference in harshness. In terms of feel umhw is closer to aluminum than a street performance urethane. If anyone wants a common way to understand how umhw feels, go you your kitchen and pull out your white cutting board.

4) Claiming to be made in the USA and track tested is commendable but it can also be said of IE, RevShift, UUC, AKG and any other decent bushing supplier. We're all enthusiasts, if any of us wanted to get rich I don't think this is what we'd do.

[Roysneon]

I have the condor 24v swap mounts and front control arm bushings, revshift everything else in the rear, I'm happy with my choice.

[Northern]

best of both worlds.