Engine selection for a track car

[BimmerToad]

So far I've been very pleased with my M52B28 swap at track days and autocrosses. I have had no issues with reliability so far and the only real issues I've had with the car have been minor and my own fault. The throttle response is great, and with M3 camshafts, the engine loves to pull up to redline. Best of all, I got a CARB sticker from the smog referee, so it's completely CA legal.

Unfortunately I have not put on as many track days since the swap as I would have liked to due to a lack of either time or money, so I only have a few track day experiences post swap.

Not having driven a turbo M10, I can't compare, but I would expect a M5x car to perform better during hot summer track day sessions than a boosted M10.

If you haven't had many track days under your belt, I would suggest getting more seat time before you decide on either option. The M52B28 w/ M3 cams does have a good amount of power, but with 225s it doesn't become too big of an issue, unless you're mashing the throttle in 2nd or the track is a bit slippery.

I'd vote for a M5x swap w/ M3 cams and a 4.10 (if you're running a Getrag 260) for a 'modest' amount of fun ;) ... and then you'll keep craving more

[Jean]

Jean,

I AutoX an '85 318i and still have an M10 without boost. I race in SM (Street Modified) class and last year (2006) I finished 2nd in my class. Here's a video from last season of the car, give it a watch than you decide if boost is needed. This was a very big open course so I was beat by the big HP cars but really held my own.

http://www.stickypod.com/videos/data/556/ASNW_Event7_-_2006_Short_with_music_-_large.wmv

***Caution*** this is a 37Mb file
Watch the GTech Pro on the dash, Single Red light=6000 RPM & Flashing Red lights = 7000+RPM

Remember, whats even better than big HP? Less weight! I'm 2269Lbs lite!
Another thing in AutoX is the PAX multiplier that can give you big advantages. My other 318i is a bone stock version that I've AutoX'd on occasion and it's classed in HS (H stock), best PAX of all classes. I've won my class everytime I've brought that car.

In my opinion, leave the car alone, improve the driver, than improve the car!

RODD

EDIT* Also, an autoX car and a 13sec 1/4 mile car have nothing in
common except they're both timed events.

Now, that's a long course! Of course I will not have the swap done in the next couple of months before this season starts so I'll autox is with current engine in it but atleast start collecting parts for a swap ;).

My comment about 13seconds was just to show what I am looking for in a car in "simple" terms , in raw straight line acceleration. I just want it to be a little faster than my previous car that's all ;)

Tell me more about your car setup, tires and alingment setup especially.

So far I've been very pleased with my M52B28 swap at track days and autocrosses. I have had no issues with reliability so far and the only real issues I've had with the car have been minor and my own fault. The throttle response is great, and with M3 camshafts, the engine loves to pull up to redline. Best of all, I got a CARB sticker from the smog referee, so it's completely CA legal.

Unfortunately I have not put on as many track days since the swap as I would have liked to due to a lack of either time or money, so I only have a few track day experiences post swap.

Not having driven a turbo M10, I can't compare, but I would expect a M5x car to perform better during hot summer track day sessions than a boosted M10.

If you haven't had many track days under your belt, I would suggest getting more seat time before you decide on either option. The M52B28 w/ M3 cams does have a good amount of power, but with 225s it doesn't become too big of an issue, unless you're mashing the throttle in 2nd or the track is a bit slippery.

I'd vote for a M5x swap w/ M3 cams and a 4.10 (if you're running a Getrag 260) for a 'modest' amount of fun ;) ... and then you'll keep craving more

That's good to hear. How did your experience go with getting your CARB sticker ? Did you do your swap yourself and by any chance do you have a "log book" of sort with notes or pictures that documented your swap ?

I am no expert by any means, I have 3 or 4 hpde events under my belt at thunderhill and about a year and a half of autox locally. I've placed 2nd in DS and 3rd in enduro last year in my r32 but that's about it. Here are a couple pictures from last year events -

Local autox event, friend of mine took a picture

Last hpde event at thunderhill, learning the right lines



Forgot to mention that one of the main reasons I've picked up this car as a project was to learn rwd as I've done autox/track in fwd and awd cars before and have only limited experience pushings a rwd to it's limits in my brothers s2k.

I just want to have fun again, it's the worst drug :p

[BimmerToad]

That's good to hear. How did your experience go with getting your CARB sticker ? Did you do your swap yourself and by any chance do you have a "log book" of sort with notes or pictures that documented your swap ?

It took me a few tries with the smog referee to obtain a CARB sticker, which was due to an improperly welded o2 bung in my exhaust system, and a minor wiring problem. Fortunately I had a family friend with a BMW repair shop and a sniffer to help me diagnose the smog problem (Jake @ www.littlecarshop.com .... for all you San Diego guys ... shameless plug I know, but a great guy). I was able to pass the engine as a '95 M3 3.0L, since I backdated the M52 to OBD I electronics.

I was able to do the swap myself with the help of the San Diego swap guru Jason_H, and with the documentation on both R3v and other internet sources. Unfortunately the pictures I have don't document the swap (pic of engine, car without engine, car with engine, car running with engine), but Zionsville Autosport does have a CD that documents the swap which you can buy (or grab from someone else).

I *think* my car is a bit faster than a R32, but if there's any doubt and you have the money, pony up for the S5x swap :) Until I go to a drag strip, I don't have any numbers to say how fast my car is .... all I know is it's definitely fun :D

nice R32 btw

[iNetMANN]

Tell me more about your car setup, tires and alingment setup especially.

Suspension=
-M3 alumium control arms and offset bushings
-325 trailing arms a poly bushings
-all poly everywhere else (sub-frame, tranny, diff, but solid motor mounts)
-Bilstein sports and eibach springs (Now)
-Going to either KW competition variant 2or3 coilovers or
-Koni race built custom valved (still haven't decided, waiting for more feedback from other drivers)
-Combo of 325es and 325is sway bars (these are changing but don't know to what, depends on the coilovers)
-E36 2.7 lock to lock steering rack (you'll notice in the vid how little I have to turn, still getting used to that)

Brakes=
-325 rear discs (Hawk pads)
-Stock ATE front (Hawk HP+)
-braided teflon lines

Tranny=
A custom built Getrag built by the one and only Jim Blanton (this thing is bullett proof) with custom greasable driveline.

Diff= 3:91 LS

Tires/Wheels=
Racing Dynamics Pro1 w/Kuhmo V710 205/50 15

Engine=
-M10 of course!
-Redline is 7500RPM+
-Stand alone fuel/ignition management (SDS)
Lets just say, I may be pushing only 101HP with a 2.2L engine running 24Lb injectors with huge TB and valves for a reason .
Boost is in my future.

There's other stuff but you get the basics. I've been building as I learn to drive. I add changes by the year and should be complete by year 4-5, this is year 3. I change nothing through out the year except disposables and learn my car all over.

I love having the underdog car of the BMW line, and since I live in Eastern Washington most AutoX courses are tight giving me a great advantage. Honestly, 90% of the time if there is another BMW racing at the event, whether it be e30 325/M3 or e36 325/M3, I beat them in raw times. The video shows a very rare big open course, the norm is small and tight and my car loves it.

I also own a 325es that has been built very well, but I love racing the 318i because it's so tossable. A good light and drivable car will beat a medium weight high HP car anyday, look at the Miata and Mini in autoX, frickin little legends!
*EDIT* (Disclaimer) Above statement is in reference to my situation. Your local AutoX situation may differ from mine*

RODD

[terrybpp]

If the car is capable of running mid 13s I will be happy. My previous car ran a very low 14 and was quick enough in auto and at hpde plus it was much heavier than the e30.

Comparing 1/4 mile times and auto-x times shouldn't even be in the same sentence. Its like comparing apples to penguins.

If your just local tracking stick with the stock m10, some decent pads, and sink every other $ into the suspension.

[mazur]

Since we're talking about engines for the track. My friend is building an e30 for track duty. His first plan was to build an M20 stroker and turbo it. But now he wants to swap in a LS1. Anyone know how much a swap like this would cost not including motor/tranny?

[iNetMANN]

Since we're talking about engines for the track. My friend is building an e30 for track duty. His first plan was to build an M20 stroker and turbo it. But now he wants to swap in a LS1. Anyone know how much a swap like this would cost not including motor/tranny?

I know, I know!!!

What ever the cost of the E30 was, I would guess :drink:
E30 - engine - tranny = E30 , right?


RODD
'Flunked history but passed math in high school'

[Jean]

Comparing 1/4 mile times and auto-x times shouldn't even be in the same sentence. Its like comparing apples to penguins.

If your just local tracking stick with the stock m10, some decent pads, and sink every other $ into the suspension.

I am not comparing 1/4 times to autox times, I thought I was clear on that.. It was only used as an "easy" way to gauge how quick a car is other than in autox. For example, I don't want a car that's only quick in autox or a momentum car (miata). Hope this clears it up.

Anyway, I am reading up on the e30dohc page and going to order Zionsville cds.

[euroshark]

Yes! M50 swap sounds perfect... I shoulda probably gone that way. Maybe next time!

[Charlie]

Without reading the rest of the thread - M50/M52 based swap, hands down. Unless there's some rules you're trying to build to. Bulletproof motors for the most part once you replace the waterpumps and put a real radiator on them. Tractable motors with a nice powerband and very light on maintence. Don't even bother with a turbo for a track car, most people I've seen do homebuilds can barely get them to run properly on the street, let alone track usage.

-Charlie

[Jean]

Well, as long as I can run in SCCA Solo I am fine. From quick glance SM might work but i'll need to read through the rule book more carefully to make sure .

"Street Modified is a pretty free-for-all class that is a full National class since 2002. For streetable sedans, expands eligible vehicles and modifications above Street Touring, above Steet Prepared, and perhaps even above Prepared category.
All Street Prepared modifications are allowed, plus
Unrestricted modification of engine, drive train, and suspension, and some other modifications, as long as the car uses highway fuels. "

http://www.scca.org/_filelibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf

If I read under SM , i see the following so maybe I can't enter SM.

D. Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel
systems, etc.) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:
1. Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and
badged the same as the original standard or optional engine
for that model. Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the
manufacturer will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps
involving makes related only at a corporate level are not
recognized as equivalents. Models produced as a joint
venture between manufacturers may utilize any engine from
any partner in the joint venture, provided that an engine from
the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that
particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with
either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor
from Chrysler or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks
manufactured as production units for sale in other countries
such as Japan or Germany.

[iNetMANN]

That just means the engine must be made by BMW.

The real catch that most don't notice in SM is that from the back of the front seat and forward interior components must remain installed (carpets, console, etc..) but radio can be removed and the hole covered and seats can be swapped with race seats.

Also, for rwd the weight of the vehicle must be a minimum of 1800Lbs + 200lbs per litre of displacement. As example my car, that means 1800Lbs + my 2.2L engine = 400lbs for a total of 2200Lbs minimum car weight. I weigh 2269Lbs so I make minimum by 69Lbs.

Now if you add boost you multiply real displacement X 1.4 then add weight penalty. So if I was boosted it would be;
1800lbs + (1.4x2.2=3.08L=600Lbs)=2400Lbs minimum weight:(

There other stuff, but those are the main ones.

RODD
SCCA SM #222

[Jean]

Rodd, thank you ! I knew about the interior as a friend of mine runs in SM for the last couple years (normally finishes 1st or 2nd , damn quick driver) but didn't know about the 200lbs per liter of displacement rule .

I am pretty sure I am not going to turbo the swap for atleast a couple years anyway, so I am not even going to worry about that.

Thank you all for your input, it does help!

[iNetMANN]

If you race the car this year keep me updated, I have my 1st two races of the season on the 17th and 18th of this month...YeeHaaa


RODD
'Bringing the long johns to the 1st couple events this year'
*EDIT* PS: I'm swapping my tube assembly's to the 51mm and gonna put on some KW Competition Variant2 coilovers. YeeHaa... some serious camber and lower CoG finally!!!

[Jean]

I will race for sure, have a couple months left to get 15" or 16" wheels and 205-225 tires.

Basically here is what I got to work with so for:

84 318i with full interior, cloth sport front seats, m-tech1 steering wheel.
-bilstein sports inserts front and back
-gc coilovers 500front/650rear
-gc camber plates set to -2.5
-new trailing arms and m3 cabs
-new tie rods waiting to be installed

-new ie tranny bushings, engine bushings will also be replaced but were on back order
-new water pump, radiator, tstat and all hoses
-new plugs, wires, cap and rotor
-new front rotors and pads
-new sachs clutch kit waiting to be installed
-various other wear and tear items here and there that I am forgetting..

-325i trailing arms with new bushings and rotors/pads waiting to be installed

-looking for a 3.7x-3.9x diff...

-fairly clean m10b18 complete head that I might get a shop to clean up/rebuild as needed and install if I have enough time

would like to order a z3 or z4/m shifter as the stock ones has a lot of play , maybe 1/2" of play left to right and maybe replace catback with cheap ansa for now.
the next two big $ items after the wheels/tires will be a shorter steering rack and Lee's bbk and swap will have to come next year so that I can put atleast 1 season on this car as is.

Season starts here in late April.