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Old 08-14-2018, 03:22 AM   #31
george graves
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Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
I have taken apart hundreds and hundreds of m20's.
This guy knows his shit. But I'll just add this. Keeping your valves adjusted, good coolant, and a decent cap and rotar might just be more important then the oil you run.

Bad combustion taints the oil more then metal-to-metal wear.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:09 AM   #32
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Try the new CK-4 rated diesel oils like Rotella T4, the new rating requires high shear stability.

The oil being black is actually a good thing. A primary reason for the detergents in diesel oils is to remove carbon, not because its dirty, but because it decreases the effectiveness of the ZDDP and increases wear:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4464459...n_tab_contents

In racing applications, you'll benefit from the higher ratio of primary ZDDP, as it is much more stable at high temperatures. Primary ZDDP is favored in diesel oils, because the expectation is that trucks will run for countless hours at high temperatures. In gasoline engines, they aim for more secondary ZDDP, for cold starts and short trips.

Oils specially designated for racing may use a higher ratio of primary to secondary, but I cant say for sure, as that would be a question for the oil maker.

Before assuming that racing oils will have more primary ZDDP, consider that it depends on what they aim to prove. Secondary ZDDP will show better protection on a graph, but in high temp situations it does not have the thermal stability to provide that protection. Primary ZDDP will provide less protection, but it will be consistent even at high temp's.

As far as I can tell, it's a pure dyno oil. No way, shape or form is a dyno oil going to maintain viscosity at the temps a full synthetic is. Conventional oils start to break down rapidly at about 240f, they simply don't hold up when we run hours on end with 270-ish oil temps. Again, I agreed that dyno oils are fine for street cars, but not too sure about "black is a good thing" - have you ever tried disassembling an engine that was charcoal colored? For high performance, turbo, or racing applications we are comparing apples to moon rocks.


Just to add, I have personally tried different oils, noting the idle pressure vs temps in FL summer racing conditions. I have found that Amsoil and Liqui Moly are very competitive in results, but I use the LM since it's available with my wholesaler. Redline isn't bad, either, but LM is actually the cheapest for the three. I have tried Rotella, Delvac, M1, Castrol etc. After a few years of racing, I really wish the supplier would purchase barrels of LM, we throw away a lot of 5ltr blue jugs...


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Originally Posted by george graves View Post
Keeping your valves adjusted, good coolant, and a decent cap and rotar might just be more important then the oil you run.

Bad combustion taints the oil more then metal-to-metal wear.

Without a doubt! The m20 is actually a good little engine, specially if you keep up the maintenance. I wouldn't go as far to say as the oil is any less important, and TBH, a stock-ish street car isn't going to see much of a difference from a dyno to synthetic aside from the carbon build up on the metals (turning them a black/brown rather than gold) - just it's sound advice to make sure your oil has plenty of ZDDP. The subject has been beaten to death, but it's common knowledge anymore that modern oils are lacking what any flat tappet/solid lifter needs.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:20 AM   #33
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The first thing to get correct is the viscosity. A street only m20 doesn't need 10w-60 the oil wont get that hot. It's also not using the oil as a hydraulic fluid like on many vanos engines

I used to use 10w-50 summer and 10w-40 winter but now I just run 10w-40 it actually seems to runs cooler because it's thinner.
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:23 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
As far as I can tell, it's a pure dyno oil. No way, shape or form is a dyno oil going to maintain viscosity at the temps a full synthetic is. Conventional oils start to break down rapidly at about 240f, they simply don't hold up when we run hours on end with 270-ish oil temps. Again, I agreed that dyno oils are fine for street cars, but not too sure about "black is a good thing" - have you ever tried disassembling an engine that was charcoal colored? For high performance, turbo, or racing applications we are comparing apples to moon rocks.


Just to add, I have personally tried different oils, noting the idle pressure vs temps in FL summer racing conditions. I have found that Amsoil and Liqui Moly are very competitive in results, but I use the LM since it's available with my wholesaler. Redline isn't bad, either, but LM is actually the cheapest for the three. I have tried Rotella, Delvac, M1, Castrol etc. After a few years of racing, I really wish the supplier would purchase barrels of LM, we throw away a lot of 5ltr blue jugs...





Without a doubt! The m20 is actually a good little engine, specially if you keep up the maintenance. I wouldn't go as far to say as the oil is any less important, and TBH, a stock-ish street car isn't going to see much of a difference from a dyno to synthetic aside from the carbon build up on the metals (turning them a black/brown rather than gold) - just it's sound advice to make sure your oil has plenty of ZDDP. The subject has been beaten to death, but it's common knowledge anymore that modern oils are lacking what any flat tappet/solid lifter needs.
100% Synthetic certainly has advantages and should be chosen if cost isn't a concern. They don't require the addition of many viscosity Index improvers (VII's) which are prone to mechanical shear.

Amsoil is good stuff. Fun fact, their synthetic high zinc oils are rated for gasoline and diesel applications:
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...?code=AROQT-EA

Re: Black is a good thing - oil can darken from oxidation (takes a while), but only turns black from soot. The oil being black means its doing its job. Its a myth that black oil = needs to be changed.

Its a cause and effect relationship, the detergents cleans the soot, so the zddp has a chance to create an effective film. This is particularly important in diesel oils because of the amount of soot. The journal article I posted goes into higher detail; with specific measurements.

At the end of the day, its not really about diesel or gasoline oil, there isn't such a thing. Oil is oil, they are just held to different regulatory limitations. Racing oils, and specialty oils are often able to circumvent these limitations.

Street = run diesel oils
Racing = depends on budget, synthetic racing oils have their advantages

The CK-4 oils with better high shear stability are new since 2017. Do you recall if you tried them or the older CJ-4 standard?
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noid View Post
100% Synthetic certainly has advantages and should be chosen if cost isn't a concern. They don't require the addition of many viscosity Index improvers (VII's) which are prone to mechanical shear.

Amsoil is good stuff. Fun fact, their synthetic high zinc oils are rated for gasoline and diesel applications:
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...?code=AROQT-EA

Re: Black is a good thing - oil can darken from oxidation (takes a while), but only turns black from soot. The oil being black means its doing its job. Its a myth that black oil = needs to be changed.

Its a cause and effect relationship, the detergents cleans the soot, so the zddp has a chance to create an effective film. This is particularly important in diesel oils because of the amount of soot. The journal article I posted goes into higher detail; with specific measurements.

At the end of the day, its not really about diesel or gasoline oil, there isn't such a thing. Oil is oil, they are just held to different regulatory limitations. Racing oils, and specialty oils are often able to circumvent these limitations.

Street = run diesel oils
Racing = depends on budget, synthetic racing oils have their advantages

The CK-4 oils with better high shear stability are new since 2017. Do you recall if you tried them or the older CJ-4 standard?

I don't see hos synthetic is that much more "expensive" when you can go longer between intervals.

Let's say conventional costs you $25 and you have to change after 3k miles. You go 5k miles for synthetic at $40 and you break even after just 15k miles (both costs $125 for 15k miles). BUT, M1 15w50 is just $23 at WalMart, most diesel conventional is about $15, so the cost per mile is an even lesser difference.
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:16 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
I don't see hos synthetic is that much more "expensive" when you can go longer between intervals.

Let's say conventional costs you $25 and you have to change after 3k miles. You go 5k miles for synthetic at $40 and you break even after just 15k miles (both costs $125 for 15k miles). BUT, M1 15w50 is just $23 at WalMart, most diesel conventional is about $15, so the cost per mile is an even lesser difference.
Synthetic vs conventional is a bit of a different topic considering you can get synthetic gasoline and synthetic diesel oils. The same applies, synthetic diesel branded oils get to play with much looser regulations.

Given a set budget, answering whether its better to do more conventional oil changes, or less frequent synthetic changes, would fully depend on your value of time, use of oil, and opinion of vanilla vs chocolate.
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:16 PM   #37
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ya great.
then you agree or unless you are saying you do not value your time and want to change it more frequently
and somehow ice cream got brought into this.
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:03 PM   #38
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And we all know that in a pinch you can use either flavor as an engine lubricant due to the high milk fat content (at least with the better brands).
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:21 PM   #39
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ya great.
then you agree or unless you are saying you do not value your time and want to change it more frequently
and somehow ice cream got brought into this.
The one size fits all approach, very good.

The next time we take out the wifes ATV, ill make sure to use synthetic so after using it for a few hours, and it sits for 3 more years, ill remember that my time is expensive and therefore wont need to change the oil next go around.

I'll also go ahead and use synthetic in the classics that get seasonally used for ~3000 miles and weren't designed for synthetic, because it will save me the time to do another oil change come next season.

Also entirely possible that working on cars is fun. Considering the price of synthetic is X2 that of conventional. Do you think a UOA would look better at 5000 miles from conventional or at 10000 miles from synthetic?

Please clarify your position on vanilla vs chocolate.

I prefer chocolate and synthetic in the wife's corolla.
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:37 PM   #40
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my position on chocolate vs vanilla has changed throughout my life and is currently evolving.

if it had to be one or the other as plain as both those choices are vanilla but currently can not eat such a sugary treat.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:35 PM   #41
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Neapolitan has the best viscosity at room temperature, vanilla on warm apple pie is definitely a preference, though.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:02 PM   #42
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As I posted elsewhere, used McDonald's oil is the best for M20. Yeah...this topic has been beaten to death, but it is still fun to read.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:28 PM   #43
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FINALLY...this thread has become relevant
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:03 AM   #44
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I'm going to bump this guy.

What are you guys using for filters? My local Advance Auto will stock anything I ask them to, but I think I'm going to just use regular Purolators like I do with Japanese and American stuff. Are there any compelling arguments to use something weird?
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Old 06-21-2019, 11:54 AM   #45
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i use wix.... i have used them for years in my other vehicles. Wix is oem for several other brands. (not fram). One is 16 years old, the other is 27 years old.
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