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M54 Madness, the remix

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    #31
    I'm watching closely, very interested. Gives me ideas for my 330Ci...

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      #32
      subscribed!
      2004 500whp STI Track monster
      1988 180hp Slow Daily 325is

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        #33
        Originally posted by hoveringuy View Post
        I'm not completely lost to the dark side; I'm convinced I get achieve 250whp on this setup and the increase in power across a wide chunk of the powerband is irrefutable. It's the same effect as headers which may cause a small drop in low-rpm torque but more than make up for it with a broad power increase.

        Add the fact that the m50 manifold weighs significantly less and looks cleaner; I'm willing to be a guinnea pig.
        Steve
        Your first swap was so informative, I'm pleased you're prepared to blaze the trail again. I'm sure we'll all learn something new along the way.

        Are you underestimating The Power of the Dark Side?

        You are chasing power at over 4000rpm at the expense of torque between 1500-3750rpm - often where DD use power.
        I'm left asking myself will this will be similar to an M52 (aluminium) 3.0 stroker though? In which case why not use a simpler chipped ECU?

        This is not meant as a criticism, but is meant more as an open question of what do I do with my M54B30? I do not have your electrical knowledge, but was prepared to get a programmer to re-work my MS43 ECU (if it is properly possible? - and the jury is still out on that one as far as I'm concerned) so that I could run Dual Vanos + DISA to get the fabulous low torque of the M54B30.

        Now you are advocating dropping DISA, and you often said Dual Vanos was 90% emissions, I'm now questioning whether to run my M54 as if it were an M52 which would be a lot easier from the ECU point of view.

        Where's the benefit in a megasquirt M54B30 with M50 Inlet?
        Fully controlled Inlet Vanos
        Fully controlled Outlet Vanos (does this really help?)
        Easier to self tune (if you know how)

        Any others?

        Keep up the fabulous work - it has been genuine pioneering!

        I'm just surprised there have not been more M54 swaps, but suspect it is still the ECU issues causing the reticence.

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          #34
          There are more. :p I am in the process of putting an m54b25 in my E30 track car.
          Ported head
          m50 manifold
          Shrick 272/256
          Exhaust vanos welded
          Headers
          PS and AC deleted and removed extra (outer) crank pulley
          Arp everywhere (except mains where I got creative)
          Going to run MS3x
          Planning to rev it to about 7500

          Should be in the car next week.
          Can't wait.
          E30 Widebody 325is - M54b25 in progress (Track / AutoX)
          E39 Wagon 528i (with a clutch the way God intended)
          Toyota MR2 (Ice racer)

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            #35
            Originally posted by shanehutton View Post
            There are more. :p I am in the process of putting an m54b25 in my E30 track car.
            Ported head
            m50 manifold
            Shrick 272/256
            Exhaust vanos welded
            Headers
            PS and AC deleted and removed extra (outer) crank pulley
            Arp everywhere (except mains where I got creative)
            Going to run MS3x
            Planning to rev it to about 7500

            Should be in the car next week.
            Can't wait.
            Interesting Shane, but using as a track car has a different set of objectives: low rpm torque is not required, so I understand M50 inlet in this application, maximising top end flow.

            Is there an issue with the oil pumps in M54B25, as there is with M54b30, when revving to 7,500rpm on a prolonged basis?

            How have you removed the additional outer crank pulley? Physically removed it? Or used an alternative single pulley?

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              #36
              Part of what I'm doing is expanding the envelope of the m54 engine. If I were contemplating an S50 or S52 swap, I could choose from three dozen proven configurations and know exactly what to expect from each one.

              We don't have that much data on the M54 yet. I am very happy with my current configuration and *may* regret losing the DISA, although I think losing 5-7 torques will be more than offset by gaining a wide margin of power above 4000.

              My biggest complain is that my motor is a currently a little breathless at that point even compared to how my M50 kept pulling until redline. The M50 had a certain fun factor that I'm missing in the M54, even with less power.

              A 3.0 aluminum M52 would be very similar, except that it would still only have 12 degrees of intake advance compared to 20 on the M54 and there some other technical improvements. On the other hand, the head may flow better. Dunno... I haven't seen a heck of a lot of power from the exhaust retard but there is some.

              I also really like the Megasquirt because I don't have some of the problems I had with the 413 ECU. Namely, I needed to bump the idle up on the 413 in order to keep it stalling with the lighter flywheel. The 413 had a hard time "catching" the falling revs with the lighter flywheel. The MS3 is really good at that stuff and has an incredibly smooth idle and idle transitions. Plus, having run both MAF and MAP on the same motor, I can say that MAP is good for a chunk of power over MAF; something the 413 can never do.

              As far as the MS43, I have no experience with it and I think it's perfect for a stock driving experience. I believe it's starting to open up as far as tuning.

              I will be getting off my butt in the next month to continue work on this. I've been slammed with summer work and just haven't had time...

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                #37
                can I be first in line if you decide to sell the headers? :)
                Simon
                Current Cars:
                -1999 996.1 911 4/98 3.8L 6-Speed, 21st Century Beetle

                Make R3V Great Again -2020

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                  #38
                  Yes. Being attack car I do get to ignore things like fuel economy and low end torque. The car is only 2200lbs so it doesn't take much to light up the rear tires with the 4.10 rear end. I think it will still be plenty capable of lighting them up if I get too ambitious exiting a tight corner. With the headwork and cams I figure the M50 manifold should really get things going up top.

                  The oil pump shaft / crank issues of the b30 is exactly why I decided to go with the b25. The rod ratio is much better for high revs and the crank doesn't suffer from the vibrations that seem to be affecting the oil pump shafts. I did secure the oil pump sprocket with a spring pin as I assume it is still prone to back off and I didn't want that happening.

                  As for the crank pulley, I cut it off. Less weight to spin and more room at the front of the engine. Win Win. :p

                  I assume I will post up a thread on the build eventually. I don't want to jack this thread and all it's awesomeness.

                  Building the wiring harness this weekend.



                  Originally posted by mike25 View Post
                  Interesting Shane, but using as a track car has a different set of objectives: low rpm torque is not required, so I understand M50 inlet in this application, maximising top end flow.

                  Is there an issue with the oil pumps in M54B25, as there is with M54b30, when revving to 7,500rpm on a prolonged basis?

                  How have you removed the additional outer crank pulley? Physically removed it? Or used an alternative single pulley?
                  E30 Widebody 325is - M54b25 in progress (Track / AutoX)
                  E39 Wagon 528i (with a clutch the way God intended)
                  Toyota MR2 (Ice racer)

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                    #39
                    Is the old motor dead? Planning to sell? It would be going in an E34 BTW, and going back to OBD2.

                    Closing SOON!
                    "LAST CHANCE FOR G.A.S." DEAL IS ON NOW

                    Luke AT germanaudiospecialties DOT com or text 425-761-6450, or for quickest answers, call me at the shop 360-669-0398

                    Thanks for 10 years of fun!

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by StereoInstaller1 View Post
                      Is the old motor dead? Planning to sell? It would be going in an E34 BTW, and going back to OBD2.
                      Nothing wrong with it... just easier starting with a motor that's not already in the car.

                      When I pull it will be almost complete. The only parts I'll need are the thermosat and maybe alternator.

                      Anyone who is in the area is welcome to drive the car!

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Steve, I love your work mate, this is really cool stuff.

                        I do have an interesting point I'd like to discuss in here as its quite relevant to us watching in anticipation of your results.

                        There was a guy that has fitted the M54's double vanos to an M50/M52 single VANOS head. (This guy - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=902606)

                        My question is whether its better to start with the older motor which already has the intake ports matched to the M50 intake manifold and then retrofit the double vanos or to go through the route you are currently planning.

                        This is of extreme interest to me as I was planning to build a motor later this year based on an aluminium block M52 single vanos block. My plan was to keep the stock 2.8l crank to keep harmonics in check, lighten the rotating assembly and use 140mm rods. I plan to spend a lot of time between 6000-7200rpm on this setup and want to avoid harmonic issues with the 89.6mm crank.

                        However, I can see that by using the older engine as a base, I will not have the reverse cooling system and electronically controlled thermostat that is present in the double vanos engines. In the older engines the coolant cools the block first and then the cylinder head, but with the M52TU/M54, it cools the head first which is great for keeping cylinder head temps down.

                        The questions are whether this means much and whether there is anything else I've missed here?

                        Cheers!
                        Leo.

                        E30 318iS, E36 328i

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                          #42
                          I can't see a strong advantage either way, if you're using an aluminum block for each build. I don't have much direct experience in a high-rpm build like you're planning, but I suspect that your best option would be one that involved a steel block.

                          Otherwise, not too much difference between an aluminum M52 and the M54.

                          I should be taking my head to the machinist soon.

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                            #43
                            I love this build. I used to own an E46 touring and I was pretty active on e46fanatics. God forbid someone tried to do serious engine modifications on the m54... everybody would jump on the thread and be like "the head will never support the flow, the harmonics are horrible, you cant do this, you cant do that." One of the shittiest car communities ever. (I fkn hate e46fanatics)

                            My point being, you prove that theyre all full of shit and you can get an m54 to produce power. E46 guys are just jackasses
                            = Heidi 1988 325 -> 335i. 7200rpm built M30

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                              #44
                              Does the M52tu have the same coolant path as the M54? I have never worked on one so I dont know.

                              IMO the coolant flow in the M54 is much better to support higher power, but unless you are doing a big turbo build thats mostly irrelevant.
                              -Nick

                              M42 on VEMS

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by wazzu70 View Post
                                Does the M52tu have the same coolant path as the M54? I have never worked on one so I dont know.

                                IMO the coolant flow in the M54 is much better to support higher power, but unless you are doing a big turbo build thats mostly irrelevant.
                                Yes, all the double VANOS engines have the reverse cooling. In theory it should allow for slightly more power as the cylinder head should be kept cooler than the older design. The question is how much difference does this really make.
                                Leo.

                                E30 318iS, E36 328i

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