Since we're here...

[ck_taft325is]

To each his own. You have just as much faith in whatever it is you believe. Something to think about.

[chadthestampede]

I am being completely serious.

Did you know that Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and both Roosevelt's were all liberals? These are widely regarded as the top 5 Presidents in American history.

Really what you have a problem with is the economic policy that many contemporary liberals support.

This is a poor argument. Being liberal in Washington's time would be extremely conservative now.

[mrsleeve]

Did you know that Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and both Roosevelt's were all liberals? These are widely regarded as the top 5 Presidents in American history.

.

Your really reaching for this one

yeah and if JFK were to be around now he would fall into the conservative camp, by modern definitions.

[87e30]

Our nation was founded on a fear of government.

Times change I suppose.

[Hallen]

And independents, for the most part, are indecisive wafflers who are too spineless to actually take a stance on anything, and wait in the wings to jump on whichever side emerges victorious. This is, of course, subjective. See; Hillary Clinton.

LOL, first annual political forum POST OF THE YEAR award candidate.
(your mileage may vary. See contest details for prizes)

[LBJefferies]

This is a poor argument. Being liberal in Washington's time would be extremely conservative now.

Maybe if you speak of specific issues but the mindset is still the same. These people questioned the conservative norms of their times and this is what made them liberal. Lincoln really is the best example of this. Slavery was a long held conservative tradition which Lincoln completely abolished. If you look at what he did as a whole, he implemented economic regulation, expanded the power of the federal government and gave more rights/power to minorities. He might as well have had a dreadlocks and smoked a joint while delivering the emancipation proclamation because he was a straight up hippie of his day. People HATED Lincoln for the same reasons that people hate liberals today. In retrospect though, he is widely regarded as the greatest US President.

Conservatives are really going against the grain of history.

[87e30]

In retrospect though, he is widely regarded as the greatest US President..

I think that statement might really be pushing your argument. But overall, interesting point.

[mar1t1me]

Slavery was a long held conservative tradition which Lincoln completely abolished.

Better re-read the Emancipation Proclamation! It freed NO Northern slaves, only slaves who were in states that were in rebellion. It "freed" Southern slaves, but since the South was in rebellion, they did not heed the declaration.

The Emancipation Proclamation did not free all slaves in the United States. Rather, it declared free only those slaves living in states not under Union control. William Seward, Lincoln's secretary of state, commented, "We show our symapthy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free." Lincoln was fully aware of the irony, but he did not want to antagonize the slave states loyal to the Union by setting their slaves free.

The proclamation allowed black soldiers to fight for the Union -- soldiers that were desperately needed. It also tied the issue of slavery directly to the war.

Lincoln was no hippie-but he was politically savvy. On the one hand he said:

"The monstrous injustice of slavery... deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world- enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites- causes the real friends of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty."

But then he also said:

"My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia, to their own native land. But a moment's reflection would convince me, that whatever of high hope (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible."

He wanted them gone, but it was too late. We had imported to many. Ironic that the main reason we have so many African-Americans in this country was the greed and laziness of white people...

That's not racist in the sense that I am implying superiority of one race over another. Just an observation of reality.

[z31maniac]

That's cute.

h0lmes thinks the Civil War was about slavery.

[mrsleeve]

Holmes you do know that many of the founders despised slavery, and actuly changed a key line in the Declaration of independence

To "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" which we all should know.

From "Rights to life, Liberty and PROPERTY"

this was changed so that the southern slave owners could not point to this and say slaves are property and there for part of the declaration of independence and founding principals for the revolution. Slavery was a very very stick subject for the Continental Congress and was one thing they could not agree upon and chose to basically ignore . Knowing it would come to a head and resolve itself at some point.

AND NO THE civil war was not about slavery.

There is an old joke, that says Abe Lincoln woke one morn, after a 3 day bender and exclaimed after and Aid whispered something into his ear, "I FREED THE WHAT"

[ck_taft325is]

Lesser intelligence than what?



Certainly not you and those 9000 other people dumb enough to beleive that crap.

And let me just point out that's a pretty big statement without any backing thus far. If you've got some questions, by all means. If you want to throw insults around, that's fine to but it just makes you look as bad as those idiots holding "God Hates Fags" signs.

[CorvallisBMW]

... I think a Democrat (on the Liberal/Progressive side) is literally, of lesser intelligence.

That is all.

Intersting idea. I counter with this:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/liberals.atheists.sex.intelligence/index.html

According to this study, people who identified themselves as 'liberal' had, on average, a 6-11 point higher IQ than those who did not. While small, it is statistically significant.

Discuss.

[chadthestampede]

the data should not be used to stereotype or make assumptions about people, experts say.

they know exactly what the data is going to be used for.

Besides, IQ tests are worthless anymore. Since they only measure linguistic, mathematical, and spatial intelligence, they merely show how well a person may do academically, not how 'smart' they are. Different occupations and activities call for different types of intelligences, and IQ test scores have no bearing on economic success.

[LBJefferies]

That's cute.

h0lmes thinks the Civil War was about slavery.

Holmes you do know that many of the founders despised slavery, and actuly changed a key line in the Declaration of independence

To "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" which we all should know.

From "Rights to life, Liberty and PROPERTY"

this was changed so that the southern slave owners could not point to this and say slaves are property and there for part of the declaration of independence and founding principals for the revolution. Slavery was a very very stick subject for the Continental Congress and was one thing they could not agree upon and chose to basically ignore . Knowing it would come to a head and resolve itself at some point.

AND NO THE civil war was not about slavery.

There is an old joke, that says Abe Lincoln woke one morn, after a 3 day bender and exclaimed after and Aid whispered something into his ear, "I FREED THE WHAT"

Do you honestly believe that the Civil War was not about slavery? Who told you this, some southern redneck bitching about states rights? Have you ever read a single book on the Civil War?

You're pretty ignorant if you think the Civil War wasn't about slavery. During Lincoln's campaign, the only issue he campaigned on was to stop the expansion of slavery. The South wanted to expand slavery into Western territories and the North wouldn't let them, so they seceded. The whole reason states seceded was because of slavery. They claimed states rights but a states right to do what? Use slave labor. It was about both states rights and slavery.

Regardless, this is almost irrelevant to my argument because my point still stands. If you look at Lincoln's presidency, he regulated the economy, expanded the role of the federal government, and granted more rights to minorities. The man was a liberal.

[mrsleeve]

H0lmes here let me put it into terms your narrow mind will understand

Slavery to the Civil war, is what WMDs are to the current Iraqi deal. an excuse to help garner public support