The Democrat Party self destructs

[mrsleeve]

Free h/c, free college, free this free that, all that money to pay for that has to come from the private sector 1st, to be redistributed.......

[z31maniac]

Free h/c, free college, free this free that, all that money to pay for that has to come from the private sector 1st, to be redistributed.......

So did the roads you use to travel back and forth to your employment and home, so did the internet this website resides on, so does the Fire Dept. that shows up at your house for an emergency, etc, etc ad nauseum.

Still ignoring my question, why is it ok to force everyone to pay for primary education, but not college or trade schools? That seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction, no?

And Montana, like Oklahoma, receives more in Federal funds than it pays in. Get some fucking compassion and realize we should at least take care of our own.

[mbonder]

Free h/c, free college, free this free that, all that money to pay for that has to come from the private sector 1st, to be redistributed.......

None of that is "free", it's paid for through taxes. Just because you or your family don't use ALL of the services provided ALL of the time, doesn't mean that you or your family won't at some point in life.

That's like the old people who don't support taxes for their local elementary school. That same system educated their kids, started them off on the right foot to eventual adulthood, but now that they're adults there's no need to pay for that service anymore.

I just find it tough to understand people that feel this way, everyone benefits from these publicly funded programs, from the children that are educated, from the teachers that educate, from the businesses that eventually hire the kids when they become adults, to the senior citizens collecting social security and medicaid paid for out of the payroll taxes on those children turned working adults.

Everyone adds to this system, everyone benefits from it, why is it that some people view themselves as being in a bubble, somehow penalized more and receiving less than everyone else?

What happened to the idea of patriotism being people feeling responsible for their part of this greater whole? Now it seems as though being patriotic means removing yourself from the greater whole and proclaiming that you'd rather exclude yourself from the greater community and "go it alone".

[z31maniac]

^The neo-republicans think everyone should pull themselves up by the bootstraps (which they should) but continue to pretend they never benefited from the public services they deride.

It's a very bizarre to me to ignore/deny that shit happens and we all need a hand now and then. Exactly what safety net benefits provide.

You'll notice gwb has nothing to say.

[mrsleeve]

Sorry I just got done with my paper work for the days work......


Anyway, I never said all taxes are bad, nor all public services. There are some things taxes are good for many of which have been mentioned, and those are reasonable things, that the govt is supposed to do and levy taxes for the benefit of us all. Funding billys college education..... is good for billy but thats about as far as it goes. The repaving of I70 would be good for millions of people...

I have no issuses with paying for the roads I use, I drive a lot so I buy a lot of fuel, there for I pay more for my use of the roads than those that have an 11 mile commute to work. The improvements at the street for my home, are paid for by my property taxes ( I live on a private road so my taxes are little lower since we dont have any county maintenance or services (water/sewer, pavement/plowing/grading even mail has to be collected at the main road...) at our gate to our property) but we are assessed a basic fee for our use and maintenance of all the other county roads like everyone else . If we were to want it paved and so would enough other people that live on would have to pay an assessment on our property tax bills for a decade or 2 to fund that improvement. Same goes for the new elementary school we just built in the district I live in ...... Why would I receive a fucking bill from the Fire house if i need their services if I am paying taxes to fund them??? (yes that happens) But yes basic public services are another one of those things that taxes are supposed to be levied and collected to pay for...... I dont deny that these basic services are needed and reasonable use of taxation but forcing more and more "individual" or "personalized" type benefits into the system, gets further and further form the good for all society in general part of the equation. Like with the FD your house burns but keeps the neighborhood from going up too...

I think education is important and that everyone should have a basic level of general education, and I dont mind the fact that we dont have kids but still help to fund the education of the next generation... Notice I said BASIC..... Now the one size fits all approach thats been going on since No child left behind is a matter for a diffident thread. That said I do have a problem with paying for higher education for all, funding little neighbor Billys college is not my problem, thats Billys problem and should not be thrust into mine or your pocket books to fund it. If your on the hook for the bill seems like one might take it a bit more seriously, but with the way the loans are and how many of todays youths dont understand the gravity of compounding interest, and free money (loans) I dont think its a good idea for all of us to fund college for all

Again as I have said many times before some level of aid should be available for those that fall on hard times, as that can be anyone of us at some point in our lives. I think there should be some reforms to the current system, regrading duration and work requirements, (like sweeping floors at the fire house once a week, or picking up trash at the park a time or 2 a month after you have been in the system for a given amount of time), drug testing, ( If I have to piss in a cup to make a check to help pay your bills, then so should if you want into the system), and make job skills training more of a requirement after a given amount of time to keep receiving benefits......


H/C you think we have issues with the current H/C system, just look at the VA for how single payer is going to work in the USA, just because its no cost to you, does not mean its worth a shit. It will cost everyone a shit ton more than the system we had going, and if you want decent care you will have to have the means to pay for it out of your pocket at a private institution

There are systems that are in place that I dont agree with but are part of the rules in which we have to play by, and were adopted by the system, just becuase I have to deal with it does not mean I have to like it.

[z31maniac]

Again, I'm curious why a primary education is deemed worthy, but an AS/BS or trade isn't?What is it about MORE education you find unworthy? It seems contradictory prima facie.

If more education isn't worthy, why should help be when hard times happen? Shouldn't they have been able enough to save the money for the problem?

There are issues with everything, public and private, but to say "OH it's because one specific reason" is intellectually dishonest, or willfully negligent.

But because something isn't ideal (which, what ever is?) doesn't mean it shouldn't or can't be improved.

[Wschnitz]

Its not even a bad investment, educating people further usually leads to a stronger economy in the long run. If america was a bunch of GED fast food workers we would get no where, instead we find it more reasonable to almost force our students into debt if they want to get higher education.

[z31maniac]

^Yep.

And honestly, I don't mind paying to try to educate the kids, but the "anti-healthcare" crowd can't make a cogent argument about why some socialism is OK, but other socialism isn't.

[BraveUlysses]

H/C you think we have issues with the current H/C system, just look at the VA for how single payer is going to work in the USA, just because its no cost to you, does not mean its worth a shit. It will cost everyone a shit ton more than the system we had going, and if you want decent care you will have to have the means to pay for it out of your pocket at a private institution

There are systems that are in place that I dont agree with but are part of the rules in which we have to play by, and were adopted by the system, just becuase I have to deal with it does not mean I have to like it.

The VA is not an example of single payer. this is dumb as hell because you know damn well the VA is poorly managed because republicans regularly undermine it.

When discussing single payer why do you ignore the fact that medicare is a great example of a well-run, successful and POPULAR single payer program?

it's too good to ignore unless you're a partisan who is making a blatantly dishonest argument.

[Wschnitz]

Corporations cant make insane profit off a single payer system though, so its an invalid form of healthcare reform.

Its better just to let our country slip under the poverty line further, fuck the poors amirite.

[Wschnitz]

Corporations cant make insane profit off a single payer system though, so its an invalid form of healthcare reform.

Its better just to let our country slip under the poverty line further, fuck the poors amirite.

[BraveUlysses]

remember the only things we can really afford: endless, constant war and an ever hungry military/police state

[Wschnitz]

I always wondered how much different our interventionist endeavors would be if the people proposing it had to lay out the estimated costs.

I think a lot of people would think differently about them, especially when the costs show where the money goes.

[BraveUlysses]

I always wondered how much different our interventionist endeavors would be if the people proposing it had to lay out the estimated costs.

I think a lot of people would think differently about them, especially when the costs show where the money goes.

deficits and debt are only something that conservatives care about to justify cutting or restricting social services, they dont give a shit about it deep down

like anyone who supported the iraq war would have changed their mind if someone said beforehand that it would cost 2+ trillion dollars

or that we would be in afghanistan 16 years, the longest american war ever with no end in sight with no care for the human and economic costs imposed on the afghans or us

[mbonder]

Again, I'm curious why a primary education is deemed worthy, but an AS/BS or trade isn't?What is it about MORE education you find unworthy? It seems contradictory prima facie.

If more education isn't worthy, why should help be when hard times happen? Shouldn't they have been able enough to save the money for the problem?

There are issues with everything, public and private, but to say "OH it's because one specific reason" is intellectually dishonest, or willfully negligent.

But because something isn't ideal (which, what ever is?) doesn't mean it shouldn't or can't be improved.

I'm quoting this because it is the most succinct response in this thread, well done.

The question I have is why is it better for the US economy for millions of young Americans to be in massive debts from their secondary education than it would be for everyone to share the burden? More highly educated people make for a stronger economy which benefits everyone, so isn't the cost eventually returned in the form of a better performing economy?

Or millions of young people defaulting on those debts, hurting the institutions that provided them as well as the financial sector as a whole, and then the greater economy.

Just seems like people have conditioned themselves to believe that certain universal benefits are worthwhile and not "socialism" while others are worthless and definitely "socialism".