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    #31
    Originally posted by decay View Post
    bullshit they're unrelated, the oregon "ordeal" was orchestrated by the bundy property owner's son.

    YOU try again, sweetheart.
    just gonna post the same.


    They are just a bunch of whiny selfish assholes that dont want to pay their fair share. we have cattle roaming around the forests of my home town and they're owners dont seem to mind at all the cost of using the land.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by lambo View Post
      You can't legally drink under 21. Do you disagree with that too? I'm legitimately curious because I think an age limit on gun purchases across the board is a good idea. I don't believe in an age limit for gun ownership though. Just for purchasing.
      ok, question- why purchase, but not ownership?

      wouldn't it make sense to restrict purchase and ownership to age 21, but usage is authorized under adult supervision- kind of like a driver's learner permit?

      i don't disagree with you, but i'm curious about your thoughts on that specific detail- how does a 19y/o (like the Florida school shooter) come into ownership if purchase is illegal?
      past:
      1989 325is (learner shitbox)
      1986 325e (turbo dorito)
      1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
      1985 323i baur
      current:
      1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by lambo View Post
        You can't legally drink under 21. Do you disagree with that too? I'm legitimately curious because I think an age limit on gun purchases across the board is a good idea. I don't believe in an age limit for gun ownership though. Just for purchasing.
        Drinking age should be 18. We consider 18 adulthood so people should be able to do what they want.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by varg View Post
          None of you are going to change any minds..
          Agreed. Withdrawn. Apologies for any rudeness.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
            You reliaze that the just the people who take to the woods on the opening day of firearm deer season in the states of MI, WI, PA, NY, IL, and TX alone outnumber any standing army in the world right. Almost all of them armed with long range high power center fire weapons with optical sights . Also during 1 quarter of 2015 Americans bought enough fire arms to out fit the entirety of the Chinese and Russian standing armies combined.....
            Oh I know there are more guns in private hands than people in the military, that wasn't my point. My point was about the sophistication of the military compared to the rifles, handguns, and shotguns that private owners have. Do you really think that a long range rifle, regardless of how powerful it is, can stand up against a tank? Or any other military vehicle with armor plating?

            Take it further, drones. Satellites can pick targets out of the sky and destroy them easily with drones, nothing a high powered rifle is going to do against that. So what's all this about militia? I just don't see it being relevant with a modern military force that has moved passed the real need for rifles in order to enforce power.

            Comment


              #36
              I think you're looking at a conflict in a very simplistic way. Does the government have the means to suppress a revolt, of course it does. Could it actually execute a large scale offensive on its citizens without all hell breaking loose, no. Every adversary of the US throughout the world would quickly jump in and take the side of the revolters as a means of gaining global power. There is no way other countries would not get involved when the most powerful Nation on Earth is in the middle of a civil war. For that reason, the us could never suppress its armed citizens in a forceful manner. It would make Syria look like a day at the spa rather quickly. The 2nd amendment serves as much as a deterrent as it does a means for resistance
              Last edited by naplesE30; 02-23-2018, 10:38 AM.

              Comment


                #37
                ^

                Like I have always said laying peacefully in our safes and closets is far more effective than taking them up.......

                I have no illusions of effectiveness against modern mechanized tech, be it armor or drone (likely to be piloted by a operator in Bulgaria not a US citizen to avoid that whole not following orders by firing on fellow citizens thing) Thats not the point, deterrance is as napes brings up. A point that if it ever were to come to this....... Well look how long we have been trying to route out a few 1000 guys with rifles in the mountains of Afghanistan since what 2001..... thats 17 fucking years, and a decade before that the russians tried the same thing for about 10 years in the 80's, you have to have boots clearing real estate, and if only 1% of the firearms owners were involved well thats a lot of people.

                As to the grazing fees, like I said right wrong or indifferent, thats not the crux of the issue for this discussion. They were being shit on by the feds in the name of environmentalism (desert turtle or something) and they stood up. It should have been handled differently by BOTH SIDES. As to grazing leases, we looked at place a couple years ago that had a 15k ac grazing lease with the place that if you were to let it expire it there was no option to pick it back up. Federal restrictions on public lands and use in the west have been getting more oppressive and more restrictive in general for a long time now.
                Last edited by mrsleeve; 02-23-2018, 11:25 AM.
                Originally posted by Fusion
                If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                William Pitt-

                Comment


                  #38
                  Both Sides big brain comment achieved, now this thread can move on.

                  Dont defend the bundys.
                  1989 BMW 325is | 2019 Ford Ranger FX4
                  willschnitz

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by decay View Post
                    ok, question- why purchase, but not ownership?

                    wouldn't it make sense to restrict purchase and ownership to age 21, but usage is authorized under adult supervision- kind of like a driver's learner permit?

                    i don't disagree with you, but i'm curious about your thoughts on that specific detail- how does a 19y/o (like the Florida school shooter) come into ownership if purchase is illegal?
                    I believe it would add another check in the “system” without really removing the ability to own a rifle. It puts the burden of responsibility on the parent or guardian over what happens with the rifle. I might be naive about it but in my mind a responsible parent or guardian would evaluate their child prior to purchasing a rifle for them.

                    Originally posted by SpasticDwarf;n6449866
                    Honestly I built it just to have a place to sit and listen to Hotline Bling on repeat.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by lambo View Post
                      I might be naive about it but in my mind a responsible parent or guardian would evaluate their child prior to purchasing a rifle for them.
                      in the interest of trying to keep this discussion civil, i'm not going to call you naive or any other name, but i will point out that the Sandy Hook shooting shows that not every parent/guardian is responsible or practices good judgment.

                      A vast majority of guns used in 19 recent mass shootings were bought legally and with a federal background check.


                      Adam Lanza, 20, shot and killed his mother in their home, then killed 26 people, mostly children, at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., using a Bushmaster XM-15 rifle and a .22-caliber Savage Mark II rifle.

                      His mother, Nancy Lanza, a gun enthusiast, legally obtained and registered a large collection of weapons and would often take her sons to shooting ranges.
                      i'll admit that i don't know what the solution is here. between my stepfather teaching me how to use a .22 from age 10 or so, and my experience in the army, i'm a half-decent shooter. good enough to qualify expert by army standards (which means i hit at least 36 out of 40 pop-up targets, range 25 to 300m).

                      you could ban AR-15s, and if i or someone of equivalent skill lost their shit, that person would be just as dangerous with a bolt-action .30-06, and most of the discussion in the media seems to be fixated on that specific platform for some reason.

                      even as someone with a liberal bent, i can see that's not an approach that's going to be effective- even here in california where we have more gun control laws than most/all other states, i could still buy something capable of causing a mass-casualty event.

                      i don't want to see any more such events, but i don't want to stop people from responsibly using firearms either. i honestly don't know what to suggest. :/
                      past:
                      1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                      1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                      1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                      1985 323i baur
                      current:
                      1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by decay View Post
                        in the interest of trying to keep this discussion civil, i'm not going to call you naive or any other name, but i will point out that the Sandy Hook shooting shows that not every parent/guardian is responsible or practices good judgment.

                        https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...heir-guns.html
                        Yeah and that’s the thing with the freedom of gun rights. There is always an inherent risk associated with it. I really don’t think there is any way around it. The only thing that can be done is risk mitigation which is where I think a stricter background check process is needed. The majority of of the incidents listed in that article seemed to point to a failure in the background check process.

                        Originally posted by decay View Post
                        i don't want to see any more such events, but i don't want to stop people from responsibly using firearms either. i honestly don't know what to suggest. :/
                        We may not agree on other things but I hold the exact same sentiment about this issue...

                        Originally posted by SpasticDwarf;n6449866
                        Honestly I built it just to have a place to sit and listen to Hotline Bling on repeat.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by lambo View Post
                          We may not agree on other things but I hold the exact same sentiment about this issue...
                          yeah, well. i know i'm a radicalized product of my own environment and experience but there's always some overlap in the venn diagram.
                          past:
                          1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                          1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                          1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                          1985 323i baur
                          current:
                          1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by decay View Post
                            in the interest of trying to keep this discussion civil, i'm not going to call you naive or any other name, but i will point out that the Sandy Hook shooting shows that not every parent/guardian is responsible or practices good judgment.

                            A vast majority of guns used in 19 recent mass shootings were bought legally and with a federal background check.




                            i'll admit that i don't know what the solution is here. between my stepfather teaching me how to use a .22 from age 10 or so, and my experience in the army, i'm a half-decent shooter. good enough to qualify expert by army standards (which means i hit at least 36 out of 40 pop-up targets, range 25 to 300m).

                            you could ban AR-15s, and if i or someone of equivalent skill lost their shit, that person would be just as dangerous with a bolt-action .30-06, and most of the discussion in the media seems to be fixated on that specific platform for some reason.

                            even as someone with a liberal bent, i can see that's not an approach that's going to be effective- even here in california where we have more gun control laws than most/all other states, i could still buy something capable of causing a mass-casualty event.

                            i don't want to see any more such events, but i don't want to stop people from responsibly using firearms either. i honestly don't know what to suggest. :/
                            to be fair lanza killed his mom then stole her firearms, but I do agree there was likely some questionable parenting going on there......


                            On the rest we seem to agree for a change. The answer lies somewhere with in the fabric of our society, I mean we have a hard time figuring out what bathroom we are supposed/allowed to use in public, or what gender box to check...... Right and wrong seem to be going the same way as what used to be these other simple universal fundamental elements of society . There has always been the random kook out there but they traditionally were far and few between, this is getting a bit too common place I agree, but banning things is not going to fix it, other methods will just be employed

                            At least you recognize your "self radicalized" That after all is the 1st step........ ;)
                            Last edited by mrsleeve; 02-23-2018, 04:42 PM.
                            Originally posted by Fusion
                            If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                            The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                            The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                            Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                            William Pitt-

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                              At least you recognize your "self radicalized" That after all is the 1st step........ ;)
                              i did not say self-radicalized; i said i'm the product of my environment and my life experience.

                              that doesn't make me wrong, it just means we've walked different paths. :)
                              past:
                              1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                              1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                              1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                              1985 323i baur
                              current:
                              1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Honestly this last page is what society needs
                                Adult level communication. So much shallow, name calling, get the last dig, childlike behavior going on by both sides that it's damn near impossible to even converse with anyone holding alternate viewpoints and opinions. Society has indeed taken a turn to the worse as far as respect for one another, deep thinking, self awareness, and honesty. The lack of thinking or intellectual laziness is scary. Other govt see this and are actively sewing the seeds of conflict while simultaneously fanning the flames. We need to change are attitudes towards one another if we are to find solutions for today and tomorrow's problems.

                                Open question. I hope guys can answer honestly. It appears there may be the will for some firearm legislation comming forward. Do you think if Hillary was president, it would be passed? I am not asking it in a way that only Trump could get it done, but more from the angle of the GOP would have blocked any Democratic measure for firearm laws?

                                Comment

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