Race Seat+Harness without roll bar?

[Earendil]

I tend to be one of those "research the hell out of something" before making a move kind of guy. This approach works better when the area of research eventually reveals a singular "truth" on a subject. And then we have cars

What I'd like to do is try and synthesize my knowledge/options and then ask a few questions.

First, the background. I have a 4 door 325i that is track worthy, and made one trial run at an HPDE at PIR earlier in the year. It went great. Everything else about the car is up to snuff, but I do not have a race seat, harness, or roll cage.

I have sports seats, and I know HPDE doesn't require a race seat. But as I have money to spend on the next car item, I'm thinking a seat is the best investment I can make.

Race seat options:

1. Brand new certified race seat.
2. Used expired (certification) race seat.
3. Brand new "race seat"
4. Used POS.

Harness:
1. Brand new certified race harness
2. Used Cerifified race harness.
3. no name POS.

Now, I was leaning towards going with race seat option #2, and then down the road picking up #1 or #2 on the harness list.

My concern is the not often mentioned issue of how to make a harness safe. I have read in a few places that the only way to make a harness safe is to attach it to a roll cage due to the angle of the belts.
Is this true?

Second concern, how many (if any) seats can be run with the stock belt?

Because I'm not in this for the cool factor, but for safety and driver feedback, I want any additions I make to the car to actually be safe.

Further synthesis:
Which is safer (assume certified race gear)

* Stock Seat and stock belt
* Race seat and stock belt
* Race seat, race belt, but no cage
* Race seat, race belt, and cage (if you don't rank this top, I'll dismiss your advice :) )

[FunfGan]

Ive only got a small bit of info, and thats on the angle of the Harness's. Mine were attatched by the PO Where the stock rear seat belts bolt down. I was skeptical( as you are) of the mounting points. Here's the deal: if they're mounted anywhere on the ground/ bottom of backseat, they'll cause "spinal compression" in the case of a crash. I simply drilled holes in the metal piece where the top of the rear seat mounts. If you do this though, make sure to drill the wholes as close to the top where the bend and weld to the other piece of metal is. Ill try to get pics if you'd like.

[Earendil]

Ive only got a small bit of info, and thats on the angle of the Harness's. Mine were attatched by the PO Where the stock rear seat belts bolt down. I was skeptical( as you are) of the mounting points. Here's the deal: if they're mounted anywhere on the ground/ bottom of backseat, they'll cause "spinal compression" in the case of a crash. I simply drilled holes in the metal piece where the top of the rear seat mounts. If you do this though, make sure to drill the wholes as close to the top where the bend and weld to the other piece of metal is. Ill try to get pics if you'd like.

Thanks for the reply!
Pictures might be worth a thousand words here, but I'm wondering why you didn't use the uppermost mounting bolts for the seat belts? These points would seem (in my mind) to be at a good height. Is the harness not long enough to reach that point?

And Spinal compression is what I've heard about low mounting points. It's also something that doesn't sound like fun, and I'd like to avoid ;-)

[jlevie]

The safest, on track, will be a halo full containment race seat, 6 or 7 point harnesses, HANS, and full cage. But, the halo seat isn't very suitable for a car that will be driven on the street and the cage may be dangerous when you aren't wearing a helmet.

The next level down would be a certified race seat and harnesses (new or used/out of date) and roll bar. And a step below that would be the seat & harnesses and a harness bar. Either of those choices will eliminate using the back seat. You won't find a harness bar for a sedan, but it is possible to fabricate a harness bar that mounts to the rear seat upper anchors. That requires the use of long belts, but it works.

A race seat just isn't designed to be used with the cross-chest belts and I would never trust such a configuration.

[Earendil]

The safest, on track, will be a halo full containment race seat, 6 or 7 point harnesses, HANS, and full cage. But, the halo seat isn't very suitable for a car that will be driven on the street and the cage may be dangerous when you aren't wearing a helmet.

Thanks. This is a good point that I forgot to mention in my initial post. While the E30 is not my daily driver, it will remain street legal and on public roads. The nearest track is 70 miles away and I do not own a trailer or a vehicle to tow a trailer with. Also, if I desire a "driving machine" on a weekend in the country, the E46 just doesn't cut it :)

I have removed a lot of the interior, but I have intentionally kept most of the forward interior in place for safety reasons. I am not wearing a race suit on the street, nor a helmet. I'd rather hit interior cloth than sheet metal in an accident. That same thing goes for a cage (bolt or weld) in the forward cabin area.

The next level down would be a certified race seat and harnesses (new or used/out of date) and roll bar. And a step below that would be the seat & harnesses and a harness bar. Either of those choices will eliminate using the back seat.

You won't find a harness bar for a sedan, but it is possible to fabricate a harness bar that mounts to the rear seat upper anchors. That requires the use of long belts, but it works.

The back seat is already relegated to gear as required. I have no reason to put that many people in this car.

So it looks like on a 4 door that my options are a bolt in roll bar ($400+), or a fabricated harness bar, which since I don't have that skill set will also be a nice chunk of money.

A race seat just isn't designed to be used with the cross-chest belts and I would never trust such a configuration.

That's a good opinion to have voiced. I seem to recall a person with a similar kind of sig to yours (credential wise) saying that he left his stock belts intact because they oddly enough worked with the seat he had. That is why I brought it up. But since I can't find that discussion now, and assume the approach is a bad idea.

Would you than say that:
A sport seat + stock belt is safer than a race seat + stock belt?

[FunfGan]

Thanks for the reply!
Pictures might be worth a thousand words here, but I'm wondering why you didn't use the uppermost mounting bolts for the seat belts? These points would seem (in my mind) to be at a good height. Is the harness not long enough to reach that point?

And Spinal compression is what I've heard about low mounting points. It's also something that doesn't sound like fun, and I'd like to avoid ;-)

Ill try to get some pics as soon as its back from the shop. And which uppermost mounting bolts do you mean? The only spots the seatbelts attatch above the bottom the seat is the cartridge that holts the seatbelt and mechanism. Is that what you're talking about? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying :???:

[Earendil]

Ill try to get some pics as soon as its back from the shop. And which uppermost mounting bolts do you mean? The only spots the seatbelts attatch above the bottom the seat is the cartridge that holts the seatbelt and mechanism. Is that what you're talking about? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying :???:

Yes, the bolt that holds the cartridge for the seat belt. Presumably it is designed to withstand similar forces, as the belt would not function properly if that spindle came flying off :)

[FunfGan]

I did not think of that actually haha. Ill have to check it out, though my belt mounts are shaped strangely so it may not work. But that could definitly be a way to do it!

[Bimmerman325i]

I went through this exactly.

Here's safety, in order.

* Race seat, race belt, and cage
* Stock Seat and stock belt
* Race seat and stock belt
* Race seat, race belt, but no cage

Save more and do it right from the get-go. I bought harnesses and seats, but did not install them until I installed a roll bar (E36).

In my E30 I had the Schroth ASM 4pt belts, and never felt that safe using them.

Stay stock or do it all, don't half-ass safety especially considering an E30 is not really that safe compared to modern cars. Think of it this way, how much is your life worth to you?

[Earendil]

I went through this exactly.

Here's safety, in order.

* Race seat, race belt, and cage
* Stock Seat and stock belt
* Race seat and stock belt
* Race seat, race belt, but no cage

Save more and do it right from the get-go. I bought harnesses and seats, but did not install them until I installed a roll bar (E36).

In my E30 I had the Schroth ASM 4pt belts, and never felt that safe using them.

Why didn't you feel safe using them? Is the reason you rate the stock setup higher than everything else unless a cage is added due to the mounting points for the harness?
I'm wondering if a proper mounting point is fabricated, why a race seat + race harness is less safe. Really, it's an honest question :)
I'm rather okay with the second best option being free.

The only downside is the driver feedback and the amount of movement my body has while I'm on the track.

Stay stock or do it all, don't half-ass safety especially considering an E30 is not really that safe compared to modern cars. Think of it this way, how much is your life worth to you?

A lot. Thus this post :)
Thanks for the feedback!

[Bimmerman325i]

Why didn't you feel safe using them? Is the reason you rate the stock setup higher than everything else unless a cage is added due to the mounting points for the harness?
I'm wondering if a proper mounting point is fabricated, why a race seat + race harness is less safe. Really, it's an honest question :)
I'm rather okay with the second best option being free.

The only downside is the driver feedback and the amount of movement my body has while I'm on the track.

No worries, I'm happy to help.

The issue with a Race seat with a stock belt is what happens in a rollover-- the stock seats allow the driver to slide out of the way of the crushing roof both by folding flat themselves and not having large bolsters to keep the driver from moving.

Race seats are fixed back and have big bolsters, keeping you pinned in place with either a stock belt or race belt.

The issue with the race belt without a roll bar is that the belt keeps you from moving and your body from twisting out of the way in an accident. Couple this with a rollover, and you're held immobile while the roof crushes you to death.

Thus, you need rollover protection to safely run race seats and belts. Many folks are willing to trust the integrity of the roof and run race seats without a bar, but I tend to focus on worst-case happenings and plan around those.

The reason I didn't feel incredibly safe with my Schroth ASMs was the issue with the race belts keeping you vertical. I drove with them anyway on the street, figuring my reclining OMP seat (not fixed back) would make up for it.

When I sold my E30, I told myself I'd not go that route again with my E36, so when I decided to turn it more into a weekend toy, I bought the roll bar, new seat, new mounting hardware, new harnesses, and so on....all said and done I'll have nearly $3k into the interior safety stuff on my car. I could have cheapened out on components (each seat was $800), but safety is one thing I want to rely on and have no qualms or doubts on. I could have added quite a lot of power to my car, or bought a BBK, but that $3k is totally worth it in my opinion.

Safety before Stupidity.

as an addendum: if what you want is to be better gripped when driving, but don't want to go through the hassle and expense of a full track safety setup, get a quality reclining sport seat from Sparco/OMP/Recaro and run the stock belt with a CG-Lock. It will cost much less than a full track setup, will be as safe in an accident, and will provide you with the grip you are looking for in a much more DD-friendly package (that said, I DD my car with the Evo2 Plus and 6pt belt).

Similarly, if you are going to put a bolt-in roll bar in the car, do NOT waste your time and money on an Autopower. Fitment is terrible, mounting feet are way to small (I've seen them punch through floor sheet metal in accidents, negating them entirely), and they are incredibly heavy. Run a Kirk or a VSR bar, or get a custom weld-in done (my choice if I were to do it again).

[FunfGan]

I was looking at Autopower too before I decided to just get a custom one done. The reviews and stories of them(as you said) are terrifying.

[Gary Horneck]

I just finished installing a Sparco Harness bar for my '87 325e. I have cheap-o Cipher racing seats & Cipher E30 seat frame adapters. I bought a 4-point harness from them, which is also rather cheap-o, but it works. I only use the car for AutoX so top of the line was not needed. The harness bar install was rather easy, and it really stiffened the chassis. It's like a mid-point strut brace. With the harness belts correctly looped around the harness, it feels great. My club allowed attachment to the rear seat belt attachment points, even the floor behind the seat, but after research, I want to do it correctly. My spine is already in big trouble...

[Bimmerman325i]

I just finished installing a Sparco Harness bar for my '87 325e. I have cheap-o Cipher racing seats & Cipher E30 seat frame adapters. I bought a 4-point harness from them, which is also rather cheap-o, but it works. I only use the car for AutoX so top of the line was not needed. The harness bar install was rather easy, and it really stiffened the chassis. It's like a mid-point strut brace. With the harness belts correctly looped around the harness, it feels great. My club allowed attachment to the rear seat belt attachment points, even the floor behind the seat, but after research, I want to do it correctly. My spine is already in big trouble...

Just so you know, if you are in a rollover, you are in big trouble. I'd run stock belts on the street and only do the 4pts for autox.

[Gary Horneck]

I suppose its possible to roll a car at a AutoX... a meteor hit and I am in big trouble also. Not sure how you would attach the harness to the OEM seat belts, since the attachment point inwards is part of the seat. Any racing seat is going to do away with the stock frame, as far as I know. The attachment point for the Harness bar uses the upper OEM belt point, so it would be a mess trying to incorporate them. I spent hours researching this subject also, and for $1400 it was the best trade off I could come up with.