Let’s talk about Antifa.

[lambo]

refer back to my comments about black bloc.

yes, you're right, they're not helping the optics.

am i going to apologize for throwing on a jacket in case some nutbar wants to hit me with a homemade truncheon? nope.

It’s nice that you can just label the troublemakers as another entity and completely absolve antifa of any blame.

[decay]

Just staying home isn't an option for you and the other guy with the truncheon? Are either of you really accomplishing anything?

the alt-right drove in from several states away. would i prefer to stay home? sure. i'd absolutely rather spend my day at my job or doing what i do with my free time on the weekend.

did we accomplish anything? yes. we sent a clear message about our values- hate is not welcome here.

i'd also like to address your advocacy of isolationism above- at all of the tech companies i've worked at over the past 6 years, the majority of the people writing code or managing infrastructure have been immigrants. a lot of them are scared about losing their visas or being unable to return if they travel back home. if that happens, we'll lose a lot of talent, and the economy will be negatively impacted. the narrative about immigrants coming here and going straight to welfare is fucking bullshit.

[decay]

It’s nice that you can just label the troublemakers as another entity and completely absolve antifa of any blame.

they *are* another entity.

they have their own wikipedia article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

i'm (patiently) explaining the difference to you.

[Shock(/\)ave]

did we accomplish anything? yes. we sent a clear message about our values- hate is not welcome here.

You sent a message to the truncheon guy who will ignore it as readily as you will his message. The rest of us just see two sides beating each other up for reasons only they apparently understand.

I don't need to punch someone to disagree with them, nor do I feel compelled to seek out the worst group of people I disagree with and confront them.

i'd also like to address your advocacy of isolationism above- at all of the tech companies i've worked at over the past 6 years, the majority of the people writing code or managing infrastructure have been immigrants. a lot of them are scared about losing their visas or being unable to return if they travel back home. if that happens, we'll lose a lot of talent, and the economy will be negatively impacted. the narrative about immigrants coming here and going straight to welfare is fucking bullshit.

Funny that I didn't mention immigrants once, yet you write as if I did. I wrote specifically about the segment of people who draw on social welfare programs and made no mention whatsoever of immigrants. Where does immigration enter into that outside of your own mind? Are you implying only immigrants draw on welfare?

[lambo]

they *are* another entity.

they have their own wikipedia article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

i'm (patiently) explaining the difference to you.

So you’re saying that 100% of any violence committed at an antifa counter protest or rally is not caused by members of antifa? That’s the only answer I’m looking for.

[lambo]

Because if, as you claim, antifa holds these counter protests and they stand there with their signs, not committing any violence, not disallowing people to speak, not forcing people into silence, not forcing organized speakers to have insane security forces, not causing speaking events to be canceled due to a perceived threat, then we don’t have a problem and I 100% support you.

[decay]

Funny that I didn't mention immigrants once, yet you write as if I did. I wrote specifically about the segment of people who draw on social welfare programs and made no mention whatsoever of immigrants. Where does immigration enter into that outside of your own mind? Are you implying only immigrants draw on welfare?

you spoke of multiculturalism and it kind of read that way to me. if that's not what you meant, i withdraw my comment.

[decay]

Because if, as you claim, antifa holds these counter protests and they stand there with their signs, not committing any violence, not disallowing people to speak, not forcing people into silence, not forcing organized speakers to have insane security forces, not causing speaking events to be canceled due to a perceived threat, then we don’t have a problem and I 100% support you.

then i don't have your support, because i don't think it's wrong to say "don't come to my state and preach hate".

"security forces" is a somewhat disingenuous description of "guys carrying bats and homemade shields", i think.

[lambo]

then i don't have your support, because i don't think it's wrong to say "don't come to my state and preach hate".

Ok then we disagree on the fundamentals of freedom of speech.

"security forces" is a somewhat disingenuous description of "guys carrying bats and homemade shields", i think.

I was referring to the security required for the speaking events for the likes of Ben Shapiro or Milo Yiannopolous, not neo-nazi thugs with bats.

[decay]

Ok then we disagree on the fundamentals of freedom of speech.

possibly.

i'm going to stick to the libertarian ideal here- "your freedom to swing your fist ends before it hits someone's face". as someone who, at one point, swore an oath to uphold the constitution, i feel an obligation to uphold it still (especially given that i might be swearing the same oath again soon), and that includes being ready to stop people who'll use violence to accomplish their political goals.

i don't think it's okay to use violence to silence someone who isn't being violent, but peaceful counter-protest is an acceptable response. it's how things are supposed to work, ideally, right? otherwise it's a matter of "who gets to have free speech".

[Hooffenstein HD]

i'd also like to address your advocacy of isolationism above- at all of the tech companies i've worked at over the past 6 years, the majority of the people writing code or managing infrastructure have been immigrants. a lot of them are scared about losing their visas or being unable to return if they travel back home. if that happens, we'll lose a lot of talent, and the economy will be negatively impacted. the narrative about immigrants coming here and going straight to welfare is fucking bullshit.

This really is some simple minded leftist shit.

"I know some immigrants that work" is a meaningless anecdote when the reality is, and can be backed up by statistics, that on the whole, Illegal immigration is a giant tax burden on actual working class Americans and no, most of them do not work.

If the few people you're talking about are so great, good, the country they left probably needs them. How is it going to improve if everybody keeps leaving?

There are many Americans struggling to find work, often actually being discriminated against by the ridiculous affirmative action legislation and diversity quotas. Using the money that's wasted on welfare, education and health care for immigrants could be put to better use by actually helping out real Americans.

[Hooffenstein HD]

then i don't have your support, because i don't think it's wrong to say "don't come to my state and preach hate".

"security forces" is a somewhat disingenuous description of "guys carrying bats and homemade shields", i think.

The thing you fail to understand is all these allegedly violent people weren't carrying shields and weapons before Antifa/black bloc started showing up and attacking people that they can't challenge intellectually.

Even at Charlottesville 1.0, the idiot that drove the car through the crowd(and did not kill the obese whale Heather Heyer. She died of a heart attack on the sidewalk) was actually escaping violent leftists that were already attacking him/his car. It's obvious what happened, regardless of the media narrative

[MrBurgundy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

it won't let me post the actual video for some reason

There's the video where Hoff got that idea from.

Honestly, I can agree with that sentiment


Edit; I have zero problems with legal immigrants, but I believe they should look at this issue from that perspective.

Edit2; I don't want anyone to take that the wrong way. I have no problem with any human, because of where they're from and how they got where ever they are.

[decay]

i'm not clicking on any of hoff's posts anymore, but i'll have this discussion with you.

we're straying off the topic of anti-fascism here somewhat, but it's interesting that the speaker starts with china and india, because almost all of the hundreds of immigrants i mention working with (and at that scale we are talking about data, not anecdotes) are from those two countries. russia and the ukraine are mentionable as well- two of my best mangers were from those countries.

here's my point, though- tech companies have a shortage of talent that isn't being addressed *now*. i would sleep better if my team had 3 more people on it, but we can't find candidates with the right level of education or experience, so i'm working ridiculous hours writing code and helping troubleshoot fortune 500 companies' infrastructures while those hiring requirements sit open.

i think this is indicative of a failure in our education system- it's not producing the qualified brains we need to do the jobs that need doing, and when people get out of it, they're saddled with sometimes 6 figures worth of student debt. gee, i wonder why those millennials are all so pissed off...

[Hooffenstein HD]

i'm not clicking on any of hoff's posts anymore, but i'll have this discussion with you....

Yeah, because you're incapable of defending your false narratives. Not once have you come close to an actual counter point to any thing I've said.