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m20b20 low compression

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    m20b20 low compression

    So, I finished my project car, and an engine died on me. At first it gave me missfires, and then it wouldnt start at all.. Which lead me to measure compression. I measured around 5 bar across all cylinders but cylinder nr.3 which had 7.5 bar and only on this cylinder engine would give some starting sings...
    I decided to pull an engine apart and rebuild it so i had a good car at the end...
    What I found surprised me.
    All rings were same worn, 0.95mm which is worn yes, but not that worn to give so low compression... whats more interesting is that valves on cylinder nr 3 were in worst shape, exhaust valve was very leaky...
    Compare this to cylinder nr.2 which had good valves with no leaks, same piston ring gaps yet lowest compression... it makes no sense to me... Head gasket did not leak, it was good.

    I have called a man that works as CNC turner (if its called like that) and both of us could not find the main problem which caused so low compression... Cylinders were oval only 0.02mm and were in great shape, measured by that same man...Traces of honing are still very visible.
    I have tried to brake rings to see if they lost tension but they snapped quickly like a glass...
    Watter in cooling system was clean, no oil traces nor i saw bubbles coming out. Level was pretty steady when i was cranking the engine.

    When I could not think of anything else, i decided to rebuild an engine.
    New spark plugs
    Used but like new distributor, new rotor
    New belts, new tensioner, all new gaskets
    New rod bearings, new piston rings
    I gave head for inspection and paid complete work on it. Everything was either changed or renewed.
    Bought new Goetze piston rings (could not find mahle at local stores)
    With new rings, ring gap across cylinders was from 0.45mm to 0.55mm, and I have installed them correctly, checking tapered side of it to face upwards... so stamping mark was not stamped wrong.
    By bentley manual factory ring gap for this engine should be from 0.30 to 0.50mm so i guess mine was fine...

    I have checked timing belt before and it did not skip a tooth, bought a new one also upon rebuilding an engine.

    When I have assembled it, it started just fine. And i was driving it for like 10 days at most... It then started doing the same as it did before it died like last time... Smoked blue and lots of missfires...One day i parked it, and after 5 hours i could not start it again...
    I have measured compression again and i have measured it low, from 4.5 to 5bar across all cylinders...

    When i poured oil inside them compression jumped to 9 bar shortly.
    Which gave me conclusion that rings were leaking probably...
    I did not believe they broke, as before rebuild i had same problem.
    At the end of the day, after i checked timing, ensured valve clearances were good, and valves not leaking, head gasket not failing, i had no options but to pull everything apart once again.

    And i have not found anything wrong.
    The only thing i did found is that piston ring gaps were not rotated from one to another for 120 degrees but more less, like 30 or so. And its the same for every piston.
    Also i have found some very little metal particles in cylinders, and inside 5th i think, it left tiny and short mark on cylinder wall. I am not happy but not so concerned at same time as its really tiny. I can not also find where these particles came from.
    Perhaps i am not able to find or see the problem, so i am seeking for help everywhere...
    So far few good mechanics are clueless what could have gone wrong.
    I can post some pictures if you like and if you guys are willing to help that is...
    Thank you in advance.
    Cheers, Tom.

    #2
    I still did not find any reason... Perhaps you guys can come to conclusion over some of these pictures?

    All these images from pistons are individual pistons (6 of them in total) to show you guys where ring gaps were aproximately

    Sadly, because no1 can tell me for sure why i lost compression at rings, i am left with no other option but to try to re hone cylinders and try to assemble it again.

    If this does not work, i will try to do m52tub28 swap using this forums guide.
    Thank you for a nice writeup!

























    Comment


      #3
      Reading through this - my first thought is that your first problem was the head - not necessarily the bottom end. You stated "I gave head for inspection and paid complete work on it. Everything was either changed or renewed."

      Was the head planed? Did you re-seat the valves? Was the head cleaned and tested? spring replaced?

      Your last pic - looks to be carbon and gas soaked as though nothing was done to the head?

      The bottom end sounds to be fine mechanically.

      Also - carbon buildup on the valves and the injectors should be removed prior to troubleshooting. Clean the parts while you have them out.

      5 bar looks to be 75psi - which is real low. 1/2 of what is should be. I assume everything is apart - so you cant perform a vacuum test nor can you do a leak down test to confirm .

      I would double check the head. - weak springs, sticky valves, valves not seating, warped - all that would cause issues. Not clear from your posting if that has been done.

      Comment


        #4
        As i stated before engine died at first in its original state.
        Then i rebuilt it and installed k03 turbo @0.5bar. Car did not run great as i was strugling with afm adjusting.last few days i have managed to adjust it so it worked fine, pulled nice from start but nothing exceptional, just what i had planned. I had standard motronic ecu, wideband o3 sensor just so i could see what air fuel mixture i had, at one point m50b25 injectors and adjustable fpr which i have both removed and installed stock ones. I ran it a little rich, thus the head color.

        I am 100% sure head was not failing because i have tried to induce pressure into cilinders before i took engine apart. I herd no leaks to exhaust side nor intake. I did hear leak at oil dipstick/tube.
        Only springs were old on the head.

        Comment


          #5
          Well, I have expected no answer... Because this what is happening to me, it just makes no sense...

          What I will do now is, hone cylinders, clock rings 180 instead 120 degrees apart, and put everything back together.
          I will clock them like this.
          1st ring towards front of the engine, 2nd ring towards back of the engine, and 3rd (oil) facing front again.
          I got new head bolts also. As I kind of do not hope it will work (hoping for decent engine swap), I will even put this new already used headgasket which is dumb yes, but idc any more. Too much money, too much work for a crappy m20b20.

          Makes no sense. This VW golf3 1.9tdi engine, with this much ring gap (pic 1, 2), wasted 1L of oil in less then 100km, but it started everytime fine and gave me no problems... (smoke clouds not included here).
          ring gap was 3.4mm for compression ring.





          This picture again, is from my bmw engine m20b20 with new ring placed inside, with ring gap of 0.45mm



          And yet these rings are not sealing even enough for engine to start...
          Note this again:
          When i first rebuilt it, it was running fine for 7 days, then it started smoking blue, and after 3 days or so i could not start it again.

          Anyway if this works out, honing/deglazeing cylinders, + weird ring clocking, it might help someone out whos having same problem as i am...
          cheers

          Comment


            #6


            This is how i honed cylinders... used really low rotation speed...
            After i honed cylinders and clocked rings 180 apart, yesterday i tried to start the engine and it did.
            I need to create new downpipe as i removed turbo and can not use that one, then i will drive it a little and measure the compression again.

            Comment


              #7
              clocking the rings is not that important as they rotate, you just dont want them aligned during breakin as its not ideal

              have you measured the bores?

              might have borewashed them
              89 E30 325is Lachs Silber - currently M20B31, M20B33 in the works, stroked to the hilt...

              new build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=317505

              Comment


                #8
                I did not measure them, turner measured how oval are they and it turned out it was only 0.02mm oval (if i wrote it correctly)
                He said 2 of 100 oval if you get me? He said block is in good condition...
                I dont know if rings rotate or not, fact is when i pulled out pistons they did rotate... but one man said to me that they only rotate at beginning when engine is freshly built... after cylinders get oval a little bit, rings adjust to it and then because its oval it holds them in place... they do rotate but only a little bit back and forward...

                True or not i have no idea. I clocked them 180 apart because i thought i could use that oval shape to hold them... so i put one to front and second to back side of the engine.
                We will see how will it turn out...

                Comment


                  #9
                  so far so good...

                  At the end of this week i will measure the compression...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Measure it now for reference
                    89 E30 325is Lachs Silber - currently M20B31, M20B33 in the works, stroked to the hilt...

                    new build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=317505

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I would, but I dont have the tool at the moment... I am borrowing it from bmw service, at the end of the week they dont need it so...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Feedback

                        So far so good...This was dry hot wot test.
                        So all i did was hone /deglaze cylinder walls, and rotated rings 180 instead of 120 degrees apart.

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