Dry sump systems

[jalopi]

So apparently what I've been talking about is called a "dry sump scavenge only" system and it's kind of popular with LS guys.

http://www.drysump.com/DrySumpInstructions.htm

http://www.aviaid.com/pdfs/1205-115_ls1-ls6.pdf

Aviaid also makes pans, I'll have to figure out whether the stock pump will fit under there or not (also if it will clear the subframe)

http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ds_oilpns_sbf.html

*edit* no it won't. Aviaid's pan is 5.5" deep the whole way through, my pan had to be notched down to 3.6" to go over the subframe.

[Keith M]

What about using an oil accumulator system like Accusump?

[jalopi]

Yeah, an accusump might work, but if I can get a scavenge pump + tank + fittings & lines for under $1500 I think it'd be money better spent in the end.

[burkey001]

under $1500... you won't.


Time to start figuring out where that accusump will fit...

[e30_302]

Right there

[burkey001]

That's where my brake ducts run :(

[jalopi]

Dude are you referencing OZ prices or something? Because we fortunately don't have to deal with expensive shipping and customs taxes out the wazoo when ordering parts in 'Murica.

3 "stage" scavenge-only pump from ARE is almost $1k, 2 "stage" pumps are about $750. I'll talk with Gary from ARE and let him decide how many "stages" I need for my application. Tank from summit racing is about $250ish. Figure $250-500 for line, fittings and a new belt, that puts me in roughly the right ballpark.

[TobyB]

The accusump works. What you have to remember, though, is that it's an air spring, so it
needs to be preloaded (with air, of course) to what the low end of your 'safe' pressure
can be. I ran 35 or so psi in the M10, which meant that it held at least a quart and
a half at the 60 psi pressure I ran.

What the accusump does NOT do is keep air out of the system. When the stock pump
pulls air, it has to go SOMEWHERE, and that somewhere is through the motor.
Never had any problems with that- but it was what drove me to play with dry- sump
systems. That, and a $500 stock M10 pump...

"never underestimate the cost of fittings and such!"

t

[e30_302]

As I understand it the precharge sets the pressure when the Accusump will begin filling, not when it will release the oil. I could be wrong though.

[burkey001]

Dude are you referencing OZ prices or something? Because we fortunately don't have to deal with expensive shipping and customs taxes out the wazoo when ordering parts in 'Murica.

3 "stage" scavenge-only pump from ARE is almost $1k, 2 "stage" pumps are about $750. I'll talk with Gary from ARE and let him decide how many "stages" I need for my application. Tank from summit racing is about $250ish. Figure $250-500 for line, fittings and a new belt, that puts me in roughly the right ballpark.

I won't argue with you, I would just point out I've done it before, so what would I know right?

I guess the pretext to my comments are something along the lines of if you are considering a dry sump or quasi dry sump you are obviously concerned about fixing a serious shortcoming in your current engine. You're doing this to 'guarantee' a solid feed of oil to your motor.
To begin at day one looking at how to cut corners, from day one, will yield a compromised result to the point I would ask why would you even bother?

Cheap dry sumps. It's like being half pregnant; it just doesn't happen.

Read any engine book, like the Racing Engine Builder's Handbook, and you will see how many stages you should run on a V8. Sure, you can scavenge with a single point, but what is the point as the outcome will be compromised to the point of why bother.

The man above is wise, never underestimate the cost of fittings. Example below

Let's mount the oil tank in the engine bay, oh wait doesn't fit so let's put that in the trunk then. Now dry sump tanks "should" be run in the engine bay so when you run them very far away from the pumps doing the work you need to run very large oil lines else you will get cavitation which will negate all your effort, expense and again "what's the point?"

So we're going to be running 2 dash 16 lines from the trunk to the engine bay. You also know that the cheap rubber hose you were planning to run won't last a damn running hot oil under vacuum, so unless you want to replace your hoses every 18 months you will be buying teflon hose. Something like XRP HS79 or Goodridge 910.

• Smooth bore teflon hose,
• holds complete vacuum at max rated temp,
• never going to wear out,
• big enough that it wont make your oil cavitate.
• Job done.

SO let's look at how much that stuff costs. I know you live in America.
Hmmm. The hose is $57 a foot. https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...p?Product=3490
Looks like the hose ends are $34 to $69 each, depending upon straight through 90 degree.


That's before you get bulkhead fittings and other twisty fitting shapes to get those hoses into the E30 engine bay because they are massive hoses and dont bend too well.


From experience you will use about 30 foot of dash 16 to plumb feed and return lines to an engine from an E30 trunk mounted tank.


30x$57. oh look that's $1710. Add on about $600 worth of hose ends and bulkhead fittings too. Just for one part of the hose system. Before you've done anything else.


As I said, interested to see your progress. Interested to see your budget tracking 'forecast V actual'


Why so direct? Just prepping you. Take it as blunt advice that it wont cost what you think it will.

[Wanganstyle]

I won't argue with you, I would just point out I've done it before, so what would I know right?

I guess the pretext to my comments are something along the lines of if you are considering a dry sump or quasi dry sump you are obviously concerned about fixing a serious shortcoming in your current engine. You're doing this to 'guarantee' a solid feed of oil to your motor.
To begin at day one looking at how to cut corners, from day one, will yield a compromised result to the point I would ask why would you even bother?

Cheap dry sumps. It's like being half pregnant; it just doesn't happen.

Read any engine book, like the Racing Engine Builder's Handbook, and you will see how many stages you should run on a V8. Sure, you can scavenge with a single point, but what is the point as the outcome will be compromised to the point of why bother.

The man above is wise, never underestimate the cost of fittings. Example below

Let's mount the oil tank in the engine bay, oh wait doesn't fit so let's put that in the trunk then. Now dry sump tanks "should" be run in the engine bay so when you run them very far away from the pumps doing the work you need to run very large oil lines else you will get cavitation which will negate all your effort, expense and again "what's the point?"

So we're going to be running 2 dash 16 lines from the trunk to the engine bay. You also know that the cheap rubber hose you were planning to run won't last a damn running hot oil under vacuum, so unless you want to replace your hoses every 18 months you will be buying teflon hose. Something like XRP HS79 or Goodridge 910.

• Smooth bore teflon hose,
• holds complete vacuum at max rated temp,
• never going to wear out,
• big enough that it wont make your oil cavitate.
• Job done.

SO let's look at how much that stuff costs. I know you live in America.
Hmmm. The hose is $57 a foot. https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...p?Product=3490
Looks like the hose ends are $34 to $69 each, depending upon straight through 90 degree.


That's before you get bulkhead fittings and other twisty fitting shapes to get those hoses into the E30 engine bay because they are massive hoses and dont bend too well.


From experience you will use about 30 foot of dash 16 to plumb feed and return lines to an engine from an E30 trunk mounted tank.


30x$57. oh look that's $1710. Add on about $600 worth of hose ends and bulkhead fittings too. Just for one part of the hose system. Before you've done anything else.


As I said, interested to see your progress. Interested to see your budget tracking 'forecast V actual'


Why so direct? Just prepping you. Take it as blunt advice that it wont cost what you think it will.

Some 'merican goods from pit row that really need to be used as a system as the professional teams do.

The ford 5.0 wet sump is not bad; I haven't had problems with it in a prepared street car (yes a FORD! ) with much bigger slicks than the average e30 can fit.



If really desiring to match a high output American v8 one of these is also needed.

Nothing good is cheap; Nascar runs McClaren computers with fuel injection now; dailey dry sumps, other high end oil systems, common stuff for all teams

This toyota nascar engine has quite a few stages on the pump; did not have a chance to peep underneath- nor did I see any engines out of cars- I guess reliability is important?????


The only major component failure i witnessed from the team I was hanging out with was a gearbox needing service but a fresh box went in pronto and the gearbox technician repaired the damaged box in the trailer in about 45 minutes.

[TobyB]

As I understand it the precharge sets the pressure when the Accusump will begin filling,

It does. When air>oil, it won't start filling. But the precharge also controls how the air spring
behaves, since it's not linear spring. I'm sure Boyle would give you accurate numbers,
but the qualitative way to think about it is that, if I've got 35 psi in the back side,
36 psi of oil pressure won't do much filling before the air side rises to 36 psi, and you're
static again. So you adjust both minimum charge pressure AND contained volume for a given
pressure with the precharge. What makes it a bit tricky is that you can never know
where the piston is in the sump, so you have to measure the oil that it spits out to
get your initial setup volume/pressure compromise to somewhere reasonable...

t

[jalopi]

Guys, I really don't think you understand how I already make it rain on my car... seriously, it's like a rap music video or something.

If I have to spend a few grand to get the lubrication system working right then so be it; this car (aside from my house) is really the only thing I spend my money on. However, the one thing I'm unmovable on is the radiator; my car runs hot as balls as-is, moving the rad to the trunk/somewhere else to make room for a traditional dry sump setup is only gonna make things worse.

Cheap isn't my biggest concern, making everything work does. Regardless, spending top dollar & unnecessary funds != best results. Can't see how my solution isn't superior to literally any wet sump system that'd work with a 302 e30; I'll let ya'll know how everything goes.

[burkey001]

Did you end up doing this?

[TobyB]

He can't answer- he be banned!

hee

t