318 Ti suspension????'s

[E30-323ti]

The factory specs are for a 4x4 stock ride height car. Slam that that car to the ground, then tell me what your front camber and caster is.

And the 330mm mine is at, is not much lower.
If I drop it down further the Camber & Castor will increase, like any E30!!

As for dropping it to the ground, I'm sure you are fully aware that lowering a E30 to that extent is more detrimental to handling, excessively lowering the Roll Centre & thus increasing roll couple, and the massive toe/camber change on the backend (but we won't start on how vastly inferior my hacked up E28 backend is shall we :)).

In fact I probably still have an alignment sheet from my E30's old 4lug sacked out days, I'll try to find it, from memory it was pretty ugly!!!

So do we get to see your alignment specs and then explain why your 5lug setup is so superior (from a geometry point of view)??
Or should we take the lack of evidence as you admitting the E36 5lug swap is a perfectly good alternative to the E30 M3 5lug swap?? And doesn't give "horrid" alignment specs as you have previously claimed (also without evidence).

Don't get me wrong Jordan, I'm not trying to break your balls or anything.
As the saying goes, There are many ways to skin a cat, they all have the same outcome no matter how you do it or what you use.
Just 'cause you did it the easiest way (all OE bolt-on parts) and I used a bit of ingenuity doesn't make either way better or worse.

[Jordan]

As you lower that car your castor will DECREASE. Not increase. Effectively the more you lower the car the shorter the wheel base will become, and the more off centered the wheel will be. Any moron can hack the castor to be within specs at 4x4 hieght.

Camber in the front will barely increase towards the negative side.

Don't start arguing other bulshit, the argument here is limited to front wheel camber caster only, and how horrid the e36 garbage is with it.

I never felt the need to print out the alignment specs on my car because everything was so damn ideal.

The e36 parts are a compromise, and always will be. OEM parts, designed for the car, are far better then a combobilation of hacked up and modified parts to bring shit sort of into the acceptable realm. Kinda.

I paid $275 for 2 complete e30 M3 strut housing assemblies. You can't buy 2 new Bilstein strut assemblies for the e36 M3 setup for that. Don't tell me you are using the stock struts!

Alot of you guys keep falling back on the "I live in a 3rd world country and e30 M3 parts are hard to source" copout. I do not fucking care. UPS, FedEX, and DHL are more then happy to bring anything you can imagine right to your doorstep in no time flat.

[e30ryan///m3]

Before anbody decides to kill anyone else!!!

All I intended to do by starting this thread was to find the easiest way to accomplish the 5 lug swap. I do realize that there are plenty of good ways to do this and some ways are favorable for different reasons. I myself wanted the easiest way as far as parts mounting right up to factory locations. I now realize that finding the e30 M3 suspension is going to be the easiest for me. I'm not the best person to be modifying parts to fit my car. For some of you who are talented in that area "thats great" I'm not one of those people. I am your average backyard mechanic, so the easier the better! I want to thank everyone for their responses but please from here on out if you want to fight with each other "START YOUR OWN THREAD TO DO SO" I'm not really interested in finding out who's better than who, just how to accomplish a simple upgrade to my e30.

Thanks,
Ryan

[E30-323ti]

As you lower that car your castor will DECREASE. Not increase. Effectively the more you lower the car the shorter the wheel base will become, and the more off centered the wheel will be. Any moron can hack the castor to be within specs at 4x4 hieght.

Castor will INCREASE.

Bottom of the strut sits infront of the top, those 2 points stay in the same place (in relation the chassis forward/back).
When you decrease the distance between (lowering it) then the angle of the strut increases thus increasing the castor.
I can draw it up for you...

Camber in the front will barely increase towards the negative side.

Camber will increase for the same reason, the top of the strut is inboard of the bottom!!

Don't start arguing other bulshit, the argument here is limited to front wheel camber caster only, and how horrid the e36 garbage is with it.

I'll save that for another thread :)
But you are saying the "horrid E36 garbage" is limited to the camber & castor.
Which I've proved is capable of being within factory spec's with bolt-on parts.

I never felt the need to print out the alignment specs on my car because everything was so damn ideal.

Thats the issue with your argument.
Just 'cause your setup is "ideal" to YOU!! Others may benefit from abit more thought about how & why their car behaves the way it does and know you are not limited to using OE E30 M3 parts to do this.
I always keep my alignment printouts, that way I have a record of what setups work at the track etc...

The e36 parts are a compromise, and always will be. OEM parts, designed for the car, are far better then a combobilation of hacked up and modified parts to bring shit sort of into the acceptable realm. Kinda.

Back to your "Camber & Castor" being the reason the E36 stuff is garbage.
As stated above, I've proved the E36 geometry works.
No parts on my setup are "modified".

I paid $275 for 2 complete e30 M3 strut housing assemblies. You can't buy 2 new Bilstein strut assemblies for the e36 M3 setup for that. Don't tell me you are using the stock struts!

$275 is a good price, right place, right time I presume, I don't have that luxury 10,000miles away.
I am running stock fitment E36 Koni Coilovers.

Alot of you guys keep falling back on the "I live in a 3rd world country and e30 M3 parts are hard to source" copout. I do not fucking care. UPS, FedEX, and DHL are more then happy to bring anything you can imagine right to your doorstep in no time flat.

We won't go there 'cause you've never had experience of trying to get parts out of the US of A.
And FYI New Zealand is far from 3rd world!!

[conrod]

Castor on an E30 and an E36 wil INCREASE slightly as the car is lowered, the bottom ball joint swings through a nearly vertical plane when viewed from the side of the car, and as the top strut mount does not move, this will have the effect of increasing castor slightly, as the car is either lowered or hits a bump- pretty negligible stuff though. Camber on an E30 and an E36 will INCREASE as suspension is compressed (either by lowering or cornering) until the point that the lower inner and lower outer ball joint are in the same horizontal plane, it will then DECREASE as the car is lowered further, this is because the lower outer ball joint swings in an arc, as viewed from the front of the car. When it goes past horizontal, the ball joint (arc) swings inwards. Pretty basic stuff,plenty written about it in all of the suspension books. Roll couple, roll centres and scrub radius are not what I would consider "bullshit"- they can and do have a significant effect on the way a car handles, the E36 M3 front upright is superior in this respect, in that the lower ball joint is further away from the wheel centre, which has the effect of allowing the car to be lowered further before you run into the nasty effects of camber LOSS, as well as keeping the roll centre higher up than the E30 struts. And another benefit of the E36 M3 upright is that the scrub radius is superior to the E30 M3, being near zero. This is why I am using these parts on my project, in short, they are a bit more work to fit, but will deliver a better result than the E30 M3 struts you adore so much.Next time you are looking at the rear suspension of an MZ3,stick your head under the front and have a look what suspension parts are on that end of the car,it is all E36 based. As a final note, I do not live in a third world country, and am on a fairly loose budget for my car build.


It is better to be thought a fool and remain silent, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt................

[Jordan]

Man I'm just dying of laughter.

Show me alignment specs of a car as low (or lower) then mine, with e36 front garbage. You won't, because you would then have nothing to talk about.

[E30-323ti]

Not a problem, then will you quit bagging the E36 stuff??
Give me a week or so.
Should be plenty of time for you get your spec's for us to see!!!

What is your front ride height, wheel center straight up to the arch, looks about 315mm to me.

[Jordan]

11 1/2in or 286mm, and thats with huge ass 225/45R17 tires

Lower your car down this low, and then show your alignment specs.

I'm not spending any of my time to put my car on a alignment machine to satisfy your curiousity.

[conrod]

11 1/2in or 286mm, and thats with huge ass 225/45R17 tires

Lower your car down this low, and then show your alignment specs.

I'm not spending any of my time to put my car on a alignment machine to satisfy your curiousity.

This is my last word on the subject, as clearly an argument with a fool is a serious waste of my time. Any idiot can get camber and castor within factory tolerances, even on a car this low- it isn't hard, and really proves nothing. What your alignment spec. will not show is how your car will behave dynamically.When you have lowered your car this much, the front suspension arms will become "inverted" meaning that under cornering loads you will LOSE camber as the suspension is compressed further. (see previous post) Furthermore, you will find (if you knew how to calculate it that is) that the roll centre for the front of the car is at or below ground level, which if you were to put the car on a track and really lean on it through some corners, would give some nasty handling characteristics, such as massive weight transfer to the outside wheel, "rocking" across the inside rear and outside front etc. Of course all of these points are probably moot, it has become clear from your responses that you obviously do not understand any of the above, and secondly, it appears you have just built your car as a "look at me" toy, complete with website and sticky tart, and you probably drive it like my nana.

An intelligence test sometimes shows a man how smart he would have been not to have taken it.................

[Jordan]

Sigh, see neither of us can have a proper argument here because both of you are unable to stay within the context of the points under argument.

Camber. Caster.

In the context of this thread everything else is a non-issue.

[boom-monkey]

Sigh, see neither of us can have a proper argument here because both of you are unable to stay within the context of the points under argument.

Camber. Caster.

In the context of this thread everything else is a non-issue.

No, it's not. You have to look at ALL points of supsension geometry to make a proper handling car. Roll center being a very important aspect. Camber and caster are not the only things that matter.

Plus not everyone wants to lower their car as low as yours, suspension travel being a huge reason. Also if one wanted to run some seriously meaty R-compunds, it just wouldn't be practical.

Conrad, I loved reading your responses, and insight into suspension design. You should post more.

[Jordan]

I've never argued to a point anything other then camber and caster. Everything else is just peachy thus, as a result going into such arguments are out of context.

My gripes with the e36 garbage is limited soley to the camber and caster, again making anything else just reaching for ground to hold onto.

Shit, all I need to do to "fix" the "problems" conrod stated with the e30 M3 parts lowered this much is pickup a pair of roll center spacers. Oh wait, they are already on the way!

http://gsperformance.com/products/rc-spacer/spacer.htm

[boom-monkey]

Those spacers are quite slick little pieces.

[65Matt]

conrod and E30-323ti,

Thanks for clearing up the myths surrounding the E36 parts.

Jordan, congratulations on scoring your E30M3 parts for cheap (that's what this is really about isn't it?)

[E30-323ti]

Jordan,
I have stuck to the argument you put forward, Camber\Castor,
I have proved that they are within E30 specs at my 4x4 330mm ride height,
I have also proved the wheel sits only 2mm further back that stock.

If you think about it, your car will be within specs at this ride height (330mm) also, so if I pimp'd my ride to 286mm, it would be as you say, "ideal" as all the suspension mounting points are fixed.

[OT]
Those roll centre block will be great for your car Jordan, just leaves the issue of no suspension travel, which if you got a pair of GC Camber plates they would reduce your stack height and give you some shock travel back (About 3/4-1" I think), but if you don't have coilovers it will lower it by another 3/4-1" which won't help.
As Conrod pointed out earlier the E36 steering knuckle is already designed to have a higher roll center than the E30 M3's thus not needing to use spacers.
[/OT]

65Matt,
Not a problem.

e30ryan///m3,

I myself wanted the easiest way as far as parts mounting right up to factory locations. I now realize that finding the e30 M3 suspension is going to be the easiest for me. I'm not the best person to be modifying parts to fit my car.

This is the whole point I posted in the first place.
The E36 5lug conversion bolts into a E30 and gives factory alignment specs.
You don't modify anything!!!
You use the correct parts!!!
It's as simple as the E30 M3 swap.

Jordan has an issue with this conversion, which is fine (to each there own), but he is calling it "garbage" (his opinion) and saying the geometry is "mucked up" (proved it is not the case) to people that are considering the swap, like yourself.

I was under the impression the forum was here to share information and to help out fellow E30 enthusiast's. If people are spreading mis-information based on their opinion not facts then it disadvantages us all.