Best bang for the buck brake upgrade.

[rwh11385]

Do whatever you want for looks as long as you don't expect someone else to agree its money well spent. Hell, go for a CF hood for bling, but don't say its great "bang for the buck"

No, I just can't stand vendors who try to mislead customers that they *need* their product for the sale. That one instance of Rob being honest about the times when one would benefit in the same thread as Lee sprouting biased opinion for BBKs is enough reason to not deal with Massive if I ever wanted a kit. Lee is the insurance salesman of brake kits.

How in the hell is the high benefit/$ decision if someone is looking for an increase in braking a BBK? If you're time trailing an S50 and have a brake duct kit and getting fade then sure, a BBK is a great solution. But someone is going to get arrested before they get fade on the street which is likely the majority of use the OP will see, or maybe some Auto-X which thermal management wouldn't be an issue.

[fiftytakedowns]

SO what pads do you recommend wiht OE brakes?, im thining about a cross drilled or slotted rotor combo witht he SS lines, and brake fluid. my brakes are really sucking right now, and I feel like its getting dangerous

[dinanm3atl]

What are you using the car for?

[rwh11385]

What are you using the car for?

+1.

Just go with blanks, not drilled or slotted. Buy ATE Super Blue. Get a Bav Auto or similar pressured brake bleeder. Lots of time sucky brakes may just mean a crappy bleed job.

http://www.bavauto.com/fland.asp?part=PB03&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googlebase&utm_source=PB03

[TrentW]

What pads then for 95% street driven (spirited whenever possible) and a HPDE or occasional track day?

[Brian D]

What pads then for 95% street driven (spirited whenever possible) and a HPDE or occasional track day?

Man, I don't want to be an internet prick but have you even tried to search for an answer? HERE'S just one result of a search. The thing is, there's not really one right answer for you. It'd be great if we could all say, "oh for that use you need xx pads, nothing else is better". But if you look through some of the threads, you'll find that there's no clear winner among the different brands of pads, all of them have supporters and detractors.

There's so many variables to your question that it's going to be impossible for us to give you the "perfect" recomendation that you want. How much experience do you have on track, what tracks do you run, what's your tolerance for noise, pad wear and rotor wear? How much power do you have, do you trail brake-there's a lot of factors to choosing a brake pad. Guys that run a lot of track events try different brands and types, and guess what? Some of them don't work out very well for them. They have to suck it up and try something else. If that's going to break the bank for you, then you need to evaluate how important this hobby is to you. Brake pads are a wear item, it's an opportunity to try different ones and see what works for you.

Street use? OEM, Pagids-it's not a big deal. Track use? Whole 'nother ball game. I have good luck with pads that other guys don't like-any one that tells you their choice is "the best" may not really be helping you much. You have to take your best shot, and see what works best for you.

Good luck, and I hope you take this in the spirit it's intended.

[rwh11385]

Lol. Brian, your link was 404. (Search results like that are cached I think) But solid point - it's not like a bunch of new pads came out to change the game, and plenty of previous threads cover the topic well.

Good discussion here: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=113328

[Brian D]

Lol. Brian, your link was 404. (Search results like that are cached I think) But solid point - it's not like a bunch of new pads came out to change the game, and plenty of previous threads cover the topic well.

Good discussion here: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=113328

Thanks Robert, I swapped in a different link. The one you posted was the best I found.

It's just my opinion, but I also believe in seperate street and track brake pads. I don't believe a "dual purpose" pad does either function very well.

[TrentW]

Man, I don't want to be an internet prick but have you even tried to search for an answer? HERE'S just one result of a search. The thing is, there's not really one right answer for you. It'd be great if we could all say, "oh for that use you need xx pads, nothing else is better". But if you look through some of the threads, you'll find that there's no clear winner among the different brands of pads, all of them have supporters and detractors.

There's so many variables to your question that it's going to be impossible for us to give you the "perfect" recomendation that you want. How much experience do you have on track, what tracks do you run, what's your tolerance for noise, pad wear and rotor wear? How much power do you have, do you trail brake-there's a lot of factors to choosing a brake pad. Guys that run a lot of track events try different brands and types, and guess what? Some of them don't work out very well for them. They have to suck it up and try something else. If that's going to break the bank for you, then you need to evaluate how important this hobby is to you. Brake pads are a wear item, it's an opportunity to try different ones and see what works for you.

Street use? OEM, Pagids-it's not a big deal. Track use? Whole 'nother ball game. I have good luck with pads that other guys don't like-any one that tells you their choice is "the best" may not really be helping you much. You have to take your best shot, and see what works best for you.

Good luck, and I hope you take this in the spirit it's intended.

I do understand there's many variables and personal opinions on pads. The
reason I asked is that there seemed to be knowledgeable exchanges going on in this thread and thought I'd get some good advice. I'm not one of these fools who doesn't search, but since there is no single, easy answer on pads I was simply asking for a recommendation in my case--from someone other than the 19-year-old-backwards-baseball-cap-wearin' kid who thinks he's got all the answers. Thanks for the last comment--no offense taken.

I like the idea of separate pads for the track and is what I suspected all along--gonna order a separate set for track days.

[dinanm3atl]

It is hard because there really isn't a pad that really can 'double duty'. There are some that sort of can like the Hawk HP Plus. If you are aggressive at the track they won't do a good job. Auto-X you probably will have no issue though. So if daily driven, auto-x and an entry level student at an HPDE HP Plus might work.

If you really are going to track the car you want a track setup. Street setup. It cost more up front but you will enjoy driving on the street more. Will enjoy the track event more. And both sets will last longer.

If I was going to recommend someone the above Hawk HP+ might work. For a street pad with aggressive driving they are pretty good. They are a little noisy for the daily but bearable if you have a high tolerance(read as... they are NOISY... like sound like your brakes are terrible). I will be, with UUC BBK, daily using DTC30 fronts and HP+ rear. For track use a set of blanks, HT14/HT10 or maybe DTC60 pads. Something that is track use only. Makes a world of difference.

Good luck! As said. Decent pads. Blanks. Quality fluid. And a REAL and quality flush... HUGE difference.

[Brian D]

I do understand there's many variables and personal opinions on pads. The
reason I asked is that there seemed to be knowledgeable exchanges going on in this thread and thought I'd get some good advice. I'm not one of these fools who doesn't search, but since there is no single, easy answer on pads I was simply asking for a recommendation in my case--from someone other than the 19-year-old-backwards-baseball-cap-wearin' kid who thinks he's got all the answers. Thanks for the last comment--no offense taken.

I like the idea of separate pads for the track and is what I suspected all along--gonna order a separate set for track days.

There's a certain group of people here that want decisions made for them, from wheels to brakes to body kits. I just have a knee jerk reaction to that kind of post, sorry. It's hard to tell on the internet sometimes what a persons experience is.

Back to brakes, here's a thread that I found interesting lately. Notice that even here, there's a few people that don't like the discussed pad.

As dinanm3atl (sorry don't know your name) says, HP+ are OK as a dual pad, but it's what I specifically think of as not excelling for either use. I had a set, and at a low brake use track like Big Willow, they were OK. Squealed like hell on the street though, to the point that people look at you funny.

[nando]

also consider removing the backing plates, and if neccesary, add ducting. I know my car needs both of these in a bad way, even with full race pads.

I'm also not a fan of dual-purpose pads. They're no good for track use and they're going to be noisy and dusty for the street (in addition to lacking cold bite). Changing pads on an E30 is very simple so having dedicated pads is a good choice. It's a bit like using dedicated sticky summer tires and dedicated snow tires rather than an all-season that basically sucks at everything.

you also really don't need anything special for autox. any standard street pad and fresh fluid is fine.

[dinanm3atl]

There's a certain group of people here that want decisions made for them, from wheels to brakes to body kits. I just have a knee jerk reaction to that kind of post, sorry. It's hard to tell on the internet sometimes what a persons experience is.

Back to brakes, here's a thread that I found interesting lately. Notice that even here, there's a few people that don't like the discussed pad.

As dinanm3atl (sorry don't know your name) says, HP+ are OK as a dual pad, but it's what I specifically think of as not excelling for either use. I had a set, and at a low brake use track like Big Willow, they were OK. Squealed like hell on the street though, to the point that people look at you funny.

Yup. And as said they don't do either very well. You can street them and they do perform well but they dust like mad and the noise... is horrible!

[TrentW]

There's a certain group of people here that want decisions made for them, from wheels to brakes to body kits. I just have a knee jerk reaction to that kind of post, sorry. It's hard to tell on the internet sometimes what a persons experience is.

Back to brakes, here's a thread that I found interesting lately. Notice that even here, there's a few people that don't like the discussed pad.

As dinanm3atl (sorry don't know your name) says, HP+ are OK as a dual pad, but it's what I specifically think of as not excelling for either use. I had a set, and at a low brake use track like Big Willow, they were OK. Squealed like hell on the street though, to the point that people look at you funny.

I'm not really willing to deal with that much noise driving on the street. I've owned my car for like four years driving on the pads and that were on it and in good shape. Don't know what they are, but don't drive the car more than 6k miles a year. Figure on replacing w/Brembo blanks and probably Pagids for the street. I'm gonna go with separate dedicated track pads as I'd rather not compromise performance for one set of pads. Thanks for the link on the ST-43's Brian--looks good.

[Rob@UUC]

If I might throw in my 2¢...

The best part of this thread was the question "how do you use the car?" That should be the beginning point for any decision about fixing, changing, or modifying anything on the car.

The great thing is, there is no wrong answer to the question. For some people, the car is just transportation and economy and reliability are important. For others, personal expression - how the car looks. For others, performance or track/race use. And each and every one of these uses has a budget. Don't care if the budget is $1 or 1,000,000 - it's still a budget, how much you are looking to spend.

The question of "what is best" can only be answered with a focused response about usage, expectations, and budget.

For basic transportation:

The OE brakes are perfectly adequate, even compared to brand-new cars. BMWs have never been "under-braked", that's the Autobahn heritage showing.

The first thing that is the most important no matter what is having the system in good condition with practical maintenance schedules. As long as the lines, fluid, rotors, and pads are in good shape, no complaints.

Any DOT4 fluid will serve the purpose, you won't notice a difference.

As long as the rotors are good quality, you're not going to see any sort of difference between plain or slotted (but I like slotted because it gives you a visual wear indicator... when the slots are gone, the rotors are worn out). I would avoid drilled as there would be no functional purpose and actually worse cooling and more brake dust.

The system can be improved by alternate maintenance choices like stainless steel brake lines (better pedal modulation and less variation with temperature) and better pads (modern ceramics from a variety of manufacturers are quiet, smooth and low-dust) will make the brakes work and feel better with little difference in cost from regular OEM replacements. Regular E30 replacement rotors and pads are cheap from a variety of sources, so that's a reasonably small budget.

Personal expression, or "looks":

That's all over the place and is the most opinion-driven aspect. As modifications for looks are relatively free of downsides, and budget and preferences are all over the place, there really can't be a broad-based recommendation. Want to paint the calipers a different color? Go right ahead... I'd recommend a quality product like G2 Caliper Paint or professional powdercoating for durability. Want to tack on a set of those plastic fake big brake covers from ebay? Go ahead (but you can bet that you will hear laughter!). Want to go with a 15" 20-piston big brake kit in show car chrome? Why not - it's your money, nobody can tell you what you should or should not buy.

Performance or track/race use:

This is obviously the most hotly-debated usage type. The important part to realize is that all of the high-performance upgrades do indeed have benefits, but it is a cost/benefit ratio for the individual user to decide if it's "right" for their use.

Then, identify the usage:

Street performance: the basics first, fundamental maintenance. Make sure the lines are in good condition (or use SS lines) and fluid is fresh.

At the lower budget end, SS lines improve pedal feel/modulation. Choose the right pad for your expectations: if you want a sharp initial bite, aggressive pads such as the Hawk HP+, Porterfield R4-S, and similar from Carbotech, Pagid, EBC, etc. are good choices... but expect a fair amount of dust and some squeal from the more aggressive pads. If you want a pad that will consistently handle high heat such as high-speed deceleration (you're booking along at 130mph and you see a Revenue Collector pointing a radar gun), then the ceramic flavors of pad often have some of the highest temp ratings. Again, the major manufacturers offer a variety of quality choices with slight variations in performance. My personal preference is the Hawk Performance Ceramic, but I have tested Akebono and Satisfied Pro ceramics all in the same car and they also work very well. Beyond that, make sure that the caliper guide bushings are in good shape (I don't recommend brass replacements as they require frequent re-lubrication for minimal benefit) and that the caliper pistons move freely (or rebuild/replace). As with the "basic transportation" recommendations above, do not expect a performance change between plain and slotted rotors, but do expect worse performance from drilled rotors. As premium pads have a minimal cost increase over cheapie pads, you can have excellent street performance with little cost.

Auto-x use: optimized brake performance with auto-x comes from pads with a sharp initial bite that work well cold... which simply means the same sort of pads as street performance would use, such as the Hawk HP-Plus or similar. In the more serious auto-x venues where competitors are trying to shave every last ounce out of the car and reduce rotating mass, custom 2-piece (aluminum center) rotors or one of the lighter-weight big brake kits is useful. Fixed-caliper brake kits also result in better modulation and less pad knock-back, so there is a split-second quicker reaction time between pressing the pedal and the brakes engaging. Again, there is a cost/benefit ratio to review for each individual user. For most, the simple SS lines and appropriate pad choice works great.

Track use: There is one mantra that any track-minded enthusiast should follow... street pads for street use, track pads for track use. Any pad that works great for street use (good cold response, low dust) will have a lower heat range, which means earlier fade and virtually a guarantee of getting "cooked out" (where certain material components literally are destroyed and the pads do not work as well as they used to). Any pad that works great for track use will have the inverse problem; noisy, high dust (and often corrosive to wheel finish), and poor cold operation. Additionally, when track pads are used too cold, they wear out substantially faster. So the recommendation is learn how to change your own pads, swap in the track pads for the event and revert to street pads afterwards. Ideally, you would keep a matched set of track rotors so they do not need to be bedded in again each time time the pads are changed. Brake fluid does become important... first, frequent refreshing. Second, with a fluid brand that is suited to higher temps such as Ate Blue or Gold, or Motul RBF600.

The low end of the budget range is just the basic maintenance and appropriate track pads (front and rear, don't forget!). As above, most of the major manufacturers' top products are excellent these days, but with slightly varying characteristics. Personally, I like the Hawk DTC-series, but there's nothing bad to say about Carbotech or Porterfield. PFC would be a great choice as well, except they seem to be phasing out the E30 fitments.

As budget increases, improvements from a good BBK are genuine. Regardless of discussions regarding maximum capacity of the OE calipers and rotors, there's no escaping the principle benefit of a BBK: better pedal feel and modulation with much less variance due to temperature. While there is a greater up-front cost, the ongoing maintenance and replacement parts costs are usually equal or lower, and the components more durable. As with auto-x, a lighter-weight setup with aluminum calipers and aluminum rotor centers yields benefits of faster acceleration and better steering response due to less rotating mass. All BBKs are not the same, so comparing weight to make sure the benefits are really there is suggested.

To repeat the theme throughout, cost/benefit ratio is the deciding factor for each individual user. Each upgrade does have real advantages, dismissing them out of hand becomes counter-productive without close examination as to what works for you. Talk to people who use their car in a similar way, see what their experience is like, but in the end, make your own decision.

Hope that helps!