3.7 Trillion over the last 5 years in Welfare

[rwh11385]

how do they come to that 1%?

The same place that Weekly Standard gets it from:

http://www.fns.usda.gov/ora/menu/Published/SNAP/FILES/ProgramIntegrity/Trafficking2009_Summary.pdf

Somehow the headline is slightly skewed in the Weekly Standard... judging the population on the sins of a sliver just seems wrong to me.

[Vedubin01]

does that 1% number come from those that have been caught? How do they derive that number?

[rwh11385]

does that 1% number come from those that have been caught? How do they derive that number?

I can't think of any other way to... can you? Probably an estimate of $ trafficked / $ total = % of total benefits trafficked...


If you want the full report, just go to the USDA website: http://www.fns.usda.gov/Ora/menu/Pub...icking2009.pdf

The trafficking figures in this report are estimates and may be subject to multiple factors—some that understate and others that overstate actual trafficking rates.

Feel free to read the entire report, but I'm not sure if there would ever be justification to treat the vast majority of beneficiaries as crooks like you typically try to allege based on some articles about the USDA fighting fraud. It's a strong possibility that although some abuse it, many might just be trying to feed their families...

[Vedubin01]

I can't think of any other way to... can you?

Probably $ trafficked / $ total = % of total benefits trafficked...

So that number could and most likely is way bigger than 1 percent correct?

[mrsleeve]

USDA has been very proud to announce and publicize that more people than ever are on food stamps. The NPS (administered by the USDA) preaches to us and has sings all over federal land that say not to feed the wild life. The Stated reason on many of these signs is that the wild life will learn to become dependent on the hand outs and there for not take care of the selves. They will then become aggressive towards people when they dont get a hand out, and become dangerous.


this concludes today lesson in common sense.


The Weight Of The Poor...........................................

[rwh11385]

So that number could and most likely is way bigger than 1 percent correct?

That is an assumption based on your bias, and is not rooted in any fact besides your belief that people using social safety nets are crooks.

As such, this type of assumption is not suitable if you desire to have an intellectual conservation versus you simply basing an argument against social safety nets with your dislike of people who are food insecure.

Of course, you could call Brave elitist and arrogant while staring down your nose at poor people because you believe they are lazy and fraudulent, even while you don't let facts stand in your way to do so.

[rwh11385]

USDA has been very proud to announce and publicize that more people than ever are on food stamps. The NPS (administered by the USDA) preaches to us and has sings all over federal land that say not to feed the wild life. The Stated reason on many of these signs is that the wild life will learn to become dependent on the hand outs and there for not take care of the selves. They will then become aggressive towards people when they dont get a hand out, and become dangerous.


this concludes today lesson in common sense.


The Weight Of The Poor...........................................

The lesson of the day is that sleeve sees the poor not as human but on the same level as animals...

[Vedubin01]

That is an assumption based on your bias

you are only breaking the law if you get caught right?

[BraveUlysses]

The assumption that so many Americans put on other Americans being criminals really is one of the absolute worst trends I've come to witness in my life

[rwh11385]

you are only breaking the law if you get caught right?

So that number could and most likely is way bigger than 1 percent correct?

You are only relying on bias when you have ZERO FACTS to base a judgement on but go ahead and make an assumptive statement regardless of that.

Why do you submit that it is most likely way bigger besides your underlying belief that people on social safety net programs are frauds and crooks?

Until you actually get it through your head that your statement is a biased assumption, all your attempts to look like the bigger man versus Brave, talking about having an intellectual conservation is all for not since your mind is already made up irregardless of the truth.

[Vedubin01]

lets get this strait. I do not think ALL people on assistance are Crooks and frauds. You are a guy of numbers and you know for a fact that, that 1 percent is only a number based on what they can only detect. Still does not mean that only 1% is fraud. Just that 1% has been caught.


When you are talking big numbers and when you have a country that is 17 trillion in debt, its time to find the cancer and remove it before it affects the entire body.

If you ever get to my side of the woods, Ill be glad to show you what I see on the daily. Miami is known for its Frauds and scandals and maybe I just see more of it because I am here.


I feel bad for the kids that grew up in bad or under privileged homes. They should not be punished as they have done nothing wrong. Their parents on the other hand should be held accountable. And society should step in and teach these kids how to be productive members of society and not follow in the footsteps of their parents.

Society should not have the bare the burden of those that have chosen poorly or made bad decisions in life.

Society, should help the disabled, sick, and the youth and some elderly. And when I say sick, I do not mean people with addictions.

The check book is only so big.

[rwh11385]

lets get this strait. I do not think ALL people on assistance are Crooks and frauds. You are a guy of numbers and you know for a fact that, that 1 percent is only a number based on what they can only detect. Still does not mean that only 1% is fraud. Just that 1% has been caught.


When you are talking big numbers and when you have a country that is 17 trillion in debt, its time to find the cancer and remove it before it affects the entire body.

If you ever get to my side of the woods, Ill be glad to show you what I see on the daily. Miami is known for its Frauds and scandals and maybe I just see more of it because I am here.


I feel bad for the kids that grew up in bad or under privileged homes. They should not be punished as they have done nothing wrong. Their parents on the other hand should be held accountable. And society should step in and teach these kids how to be productive members of society and not follow in the footsteps of their parents.

Society should not have the bare the burden of those that have chosen poorly or made bad decisions in life.

Society, should help the disabled, sick, and the youth and some elderly. And when I say sick, I do not mean people with addictions.

The check book is only so big.

SO.... as I said before to you, yes - Miami is full of crime and you are indeed skewed by that... but does that mean your bias is telling of the nation as a whole? [btw, I'm been to Miami a few times and my sister lived there for several years] Or should you take that into account before trying to argue based on your opinion versus fact? Should we as a nation treat people who are food insecure poorly because of your bias based on living in Miami? Are facts meaningless against your beliefs? What is even the point of you supposedly engaging in intellectual conversation if no discussion of reality, data, facts, etc. is ever going to alter your closed-minded prejudice?

What if it was 5%? Should you look down your nose and treat people who are less fortunate than you as the scum that walk the earth? Should you post misleading "articles" that have numbers out of context and devoid of historical insight so you can get people as simple as you worked up over it? Should you post news about USDA fighting fraud to fix the problem as a basis for your assumption that the system if full of it and the problems are overrunning it?

You talk about debt of $17T. [Even if ~$5T is TO ITSELF!] Are social safety programs a driving force behind that? The non-health programs are not based on the information I posted. The health ones are as costs have risen a great amount over the last few decades and the population is aging significantly. (Apparently some law has attempted to fit the rise in HC costs but to much resistance by a particular party) Rather than talk about those FACTS, you would rather cast pretty ignorant bias down at "welfare" programs that encompass a great amount of programs that are not typical welfare. Stuff like EITC, Jobs Corps, Pell Grants, Federal Work Study and other programs that are trying to get people off welfare or out of poverty and getting higher incomes so they can take care of themselves. [Like you said, be productive parts of society] Those items are included in the welfare programs judged by Senator Sessions. But that doesn't seem to matter as you would want to focus on a tiny minority of people abusing the system, irregardless of the actual amount of the total. You would rather assume the worst and look down... than actually care about facts.

The greatest cancer facing the US is the lack of concern for facts and the inability for people who want to have a voice in politics or to discuss issues to base their position on truth or reality, but instead rocking out ignorance and prejudice. To take out attacks on the poor, to build strawmen, and fall in love with fallacies rather than discuss the tough things we need to actually deal with, like mandatory spending reform for SS and Medicare. We need politicians to be bold enough to tell the truth and not just be cowards, being careful not to upset their donors rather than be concerned with the future of the country and the people that they represent.

If you expect society to help the disabled, youth, and elderly, then why attack these same things? Is the only moral welfare that of yourself and people you know?

Ultimately, the bottom line is no matter what the debt is at, ignoring facts and making biased assumptions is never valid. You can move the goalposts, but that doesn't mean your assumptions are therefore okay.

[Vedubin01]

SO.... as I said before to you, yes - Miami is full of crime and you are indeed skewed by that... but does that mean your bias is telling of the nation as a whole? [btw, I'm been to Miami a few times and my sister lived there for several years] Or should you take that into account before trying to argue based on your opinion versus fact? Not at all but being in Miami as a tourist vs someone who is on the streets every day are two different things.



Should we as a nation treat people who are food insecure poorly because of your bias based on living in Miami? Not at all

Are facts meaningless against your beliefs? Not at all if the facts are true facts and not just some number based on people that have been caught


What is even the point of you supposedly engaging in intellectual conversation if no discussion of reality, data, facts, etc. is ever going to alter your closed-minded prejudice? Personal attack?


What if it was 5%? Should you look down your nose and treat people who are less fortunate than you as the scum that walk the earth? Never Do and in my line of work I help this group of people probably more than anyone else on this board.

Should you post misleading "articles" that have numbers out of context and devoid of historical insight so you can get people as simple as you worked up over it? Posted the Article to get more information from those that might know more than me....nothing more and stated in the 1st post.


Should you post news about USDA fighting fraud to fix the problem as a basis for your assumption that the system if full of it and the problems are overrunning it? Wasnt that Sleeve?

You talk about debt of $17T. [Even if ~$5T is TO ITSELF!] Are social safety programs a driving force behind that? Everything contributes and this thread is about 1 topic. Want to talk about others, start another thread.

The non-health programs are not based on the information I posted. The health ones are as costs have risen a great amount over the last few decades and the population is aging significantly. (Apparently some law has attempted to fit the rise in HC costs but to much resistance by a particular party) Finger pointing?

Rather than talk about those FACTS, you would rather cast pretty ignorant bias down at "welfare" programs that encompass a great amount of programs that are not typical welfare. Your assumption


But that doesn't seem to matter as you would want to focus on a tiny minority of people abusing the system, irregardless of the actual amount of the total. You would rather assume the worst and look down... than actually care about facts. Assume the worst and hope for the best.

The greatest cancer facing the US is the lack of concern for facts and the inability for people who want to have a voice in politics or to discuss issues to base their position on truth or reality, but instead rocking out ignorance and prejudice. To take out attacks on the poor, to build strawmen, and fall in love with fallacies rather than discuss the tough things we need to actually deal with, like mandatory spending reform for SS and Medicare. We need politicians to be bold enough to tell the truth and not just be cowards, being careful not to upset their donors rather than be concerned with the future of the country and the people that they represent. That is why I run a school and not run for office.

If you expect society to help the disabled, youth, and elderly, then why attack these same things? I have built my life around helping the youth and underprivileged. Teaching them a trade and even helping them with placement. Im pretty sure I do my fair share to help this country.



Ultimately, the bottom line is no matter what the debt is at, ignoring facts and making biased assumptions is never valid. You can move the goalposts, but that doesn't mean your assumptions are therefore okay. Again come walk in my shoes and then you can pass judgement

[rwh11385]

SO.... as I said before to you, yes - Miami is full of crime and you are indeed skewed by that... but does that mean your bias is telling of the nation as a whole? [btw, I'm been to Miami a few times and my sister lived there for several years] Or should you take that into account before trying to argue based on your opinion versus fact?

Not at all but being in Miami as a tourist vs someone who is on the streets every day are two different things.

So how long I am required to live there before it is reasonable to let bias have me ignore reality like you? [Oh wait, irregardless, there's never a good excuse to ignore the truth and replace it with prejudice!]

Should we as a nation treat people who are food insecure poorly because of your bias based on living in Miami?

Not at all

Then why do you treat the rest of the country based on your bias from the environment in which you live? Are you not capable of thinking outside of your box?

Are facts meaningless against your beliefs?

Not at all if the facts are true facts and not just some number based on people that have been caught

The point is that even if the number is not precisely known, there are reasons for both underestimation and overestimation, and if you even gave an ounce of shit about the topic, then you could read the full report which explained those factors rather than disregarding it and replacing facts with your biased assumptions and beliefs that people on social safety nets are crooks because of all the fraud you see in Miami and assume that the rest of the country is the same way.

What is even the point of you supposedly engaging in intellectual conversation if no discussion of reality, data, facts, etc. is ever going to alter your closed-minded prejudice?

Personal attack?

No, that was an honest question. You talk about wanting to know more information yet completely ignore it and replace it with your bias and assumptions. If you actually want to talk about facts, do it. Otherwise, stop pretending.

What if it was 5%? Should you look down your nose and treat people who are less fortunate than you as the scum that walk the earth?

Never Do and in my line of work I help this group of people probably more than anyone else on this board.

That's definitely not what it seems based on how your talk about people less fortunate than you.

Should you post misleading "articles" that have numbers out of context and devoid of historical insight so you can get people as simple as you worked up over it?

Posted the Article to get more information from those that might know more than me....nothing more and stated in the 1st post.

You posted the article to get more information and then proceeded to completely ignore it because of your confirmation bias!!

Either honestly be interested in the truth, or just admit that you don't give a crap about facts and solely riding on your prejudice and bias.

Should you post news about USDA fighting fraud to fix the problem as a basis for your assumption that the system if full of it and the problems are overrunning it?

Wasnt that Sleeve?

No, that was you:

this is about two years ago and another story broke just yesterday. Im sure Craigslist is on top of removing them as soon as possible...

http://www.krqe.com/news/politics/woman-sells-food-stamps-on-craigslist

Story that broke yesterday... Craigslist makes turning food stamps into cash a SNAP

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/22...nto-cash-snap/

Millions commit food stamp fraud every year

http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/loc...aud-every-year


$7000 balance on EBT? Sounds like someone is really in need...




And Im sure buying lobster and steaks on EBT is really what it was meant for...

http://www.snopes.com/photos/signs/receipt.asp


Here ya go... I guess you can trade EBT for Bud in Washington St. "your area"

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/hab/4146176470.html

But again you resort to name calling...

You talk about debt of $17T. [Even if ~$5T is TO ITSELF!] Are social safety programs a driving force behind that?

Everything contributes and this thread is about 1 topic. Want to talk about others, start another thread.

You brought up debt and ignored the information that discusses why the welfare programs being mentioned in the OP are not what will contribute to the debt (outside of the health programs). Why do you blatantly disregard facts and replace it with your assumptions???

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3772
Are Low-Income Programs Enlarging the Nation’s Long-Term Fiscal Problem?
Programs Outside Health Care Projected to Decline As Share of Economy

The non-health programs are not based on the information I posted. The health ones are as costs have risen a great amount over the last few decades and the population is aging significantly. (Apparently some law has attempted to fit the rise in HC costs but to much resistance by a particular party)

Finger pointing?

No, a valid point of concern. You apparently find it reasonable to be worried about debts in regards to something that doesn't contribute to long-term deficits while ignoring something that is very obviously a HUGE future concern for deficits.

Again, either give a shit about information and the truth, or just admit you would prefer to run wildly with nutjob logic and biased attacks on things that don't match your assumptions. Swim in the cesspool that is Drudge and Faux News with a complete disregard for reality!

Rather than talk about those FACTS, you would rather cast pretty ignorant bias down at "welfare" programs that encompass a great amount of programs that are not typical welfare.

Your assumption

If that assumption is false, prove that you are actually being intellectually capable to discuss a topic based on FACT rather than your bias.

But that doesn't seem to matter as you would want to focus on a tiny minority of people abusing the system, irregardless of the actual amount of the total. You would rather assume the worst and look down... than actually care about facts.

Assume the worst and hope for the best.

So you do admit that your position is based on assumptions? And you are willingly replacing facts with thinking the worst about everything?

WHY NOT JUST OPERATE BASED ON TRUTH?

The greatest cancer facing the US is the lack of concern for facts and the inability for people who want to have a voice in politics or to discuss issues to base their position on truth or reality, but instead rocking out ignorance and prejudice. To take out attacks on the poor, to build strawmen, and fall in love with fallacies rather than discuss the tough things we need to actually deal with, like mandatory spending reform for SS and Medicare. We need politicians to be bold enough to tell the truth and not just be cowards, being careful not to upset their donors rather than be concerned with the future of the country and the people that they represent.

That is why I run a school and not run for office.

I'm still confused about how someone who runs a school has such a disrespect for facts and very little concern for having an intellectual conversation and would rather let their confirmation bias prevent them from talking about reality vs their existing beliefs and assumptions.

If you expect society to help the disabled, youth, and elderly, then why attack these same things?

I have built my life around helping the youth and underprivileged. Teaching them a trade and even helping them with placement. Im pretty sure I do my fair share to help this country.

So I guess you believe that gives you a right to judge people on welfare are lazy and crooks? I think that irregardless of your work, you should operate based on facts and not just assume the worst about everyone.

Ultimately, the bottom line is no matter what the debt is at, ignoring facts and making biased assumptions is never valid. You can move the goalposts, but that doesn't mean your assumptions are therefore okay.

Again come walk in my shoes and then you can pass judgement

You seem to pass judgement pretty quickly about those who are food insecure as mostly crooks and frauds, so maybe you ought to consider your own advice.

And at what point of walking in your shoes does it become okay TO TRUMP FACTS WITH ASSUMPTIONS? As repeated multiple times, either give a crap about facts and leave behind the assumptions, or drop the charade already.

[Vedubin01]

See I ask questions, sometimes not to push my "bias" but to get more out of the person I am asking.

As to me running a school, well I have become the number 1 school in the Miami area and have 2 more opening by January. As well as two other businesses. For someone that is half brained and dont listen to facts, its working for me.

As to people Ill give you an example, I had 30 jobs for the Miami Heat AAA this past September. 30 people signed up on the list. Now mind you I have had over 1800 people come though my Miami location since I have opened up. I have a pretty big hiring pool. Out of those 30 people, only 11 showed up. Now mind you, most of the people that come to my school are either drop outs, never completed school, lost their job and have not form of formal education to get another one etc... this job pays about $200 per game and there are many games at home during the season, not counting all the concerts and shows that come though the AAA. And only 11 showed. What does that say? (mind you 4 hours per game or $50 per hour)

On a side note, My school makes $0 for any and all job placement. 100% goes directly to the bartenders that are hired. My website donates all profits (100%) of the online bar store to the National Cancer Foundation. ( We placed 92% of all graduates that came though my program last year. (Audited by the Florida Department of Education Commission of Independent Education) or about 400 people. Any idea how much work that is, when you dont get paid 1 cent for it? )

I am like a father to many that come though my program. I hear all sorts of stories, more so than most of you on that level. I know what their financials are to an extent and you would be surprised how many will openly give you that information.

I already told you the story about my conversation with the banker the other day on this topic. And I see Mercedes driving people all the time paying with EBT cards at the Publix next door.

I enjoy how you speculate and assume my reasons behind my questions and my views. Yet if you asked anyone "ANYONE" that personally knows me, they would be laughing at you as you have assumed wrong.