E30 V12 swap info ,,

[Alpina]

Hello all,,
i want to share my experience with my M70B50 swap in to an E30 ,
Remember this is a LHD conversion so some info will perhaps NOT work with RHD cars
,and hopefully to those concerned,, can use some tech info ,,if ,,then,,or they will do this conversion,, if some one is asking WHY M70 and not M60 or M62,,,,,, this is my opinion,, it is not a fact but i hope you will understand , why i went this



Because M70 is V12 ,, have more power,, and is not a V8 that is a common engine in many cars,
the M/S6x swap is great,, and the V8 engine is in a better potition in the engine bay vs IL6 or V12
If we talk porn language,, and i guess all human being that are reading these lines have heard about that industry.. the V12 is a Ron Jeremy / Jenna Jameson combo....... maybe not the best,, but for sure one of the greatest,, and to a respect to all kinds of engine,, the V12 will always be the master of an engine that is available in a normal production car .. just open the bonnet and say.. its a V12 ..... and all the other guys in the parking lot will get envy when they see the engine and realize that their swap is perhaps not the coolest around.. i repeat.. the M70 is not the most powerful out there ,, but 300 ponies and a lots of torque, gives you a stunning feeling.... and you know for sure that you are driving one of the most individual swap car in the fleet........ that is counting IMO and thats why i went with the V12.. also the sound when turning the engine is like nothing else. !!



In my case i used a manual gearbox,, from a RHD UK 850 CSI,,i bought the tranny from a bloke from e30zone.net nickname ...KOS... but it is the same gearbox as 850 manual,,, S6S 560 Getrag .. ONLY made for M/S 70,, but does also fit M73,, no M73 engine were fitted with manual gearbox,, as original.
I used oem flywheel,, clutch and bearing.. and .. this is the biggest afaik in the BMW fleet,,from this decade,, everything in this gearbox is Leviathan compared to anything else,,,,, i am sorry to use some vanity words but it is fantastic to see how BMW engineers were doing their jobs ,,back in the days,, bigger is better .......... YES YES,, and again yes!!!!!!!
Look at the S62 clutch.. 240mm and if you do not disengage correct,, or take a massive spin the clutch is worn... what a crappy POS i must say.

For sure it depends how much effort you will put in to this swap.. but remember.. those who hesitate they masterbate,, so i recommend to open the engine if it is driven a lot,

and an engine that is 25 year old or close to ,, will for sure have some leak etc etc.. it is IMO a disaster to put an engine straight in and have to take it out because of hefty leak in the hydro,, cooling or lubricate system,,



I did a total rebuild.. except pistons,, and i went to Mega-Squirt standalone system,, as the oem Electronic on the M70 is for sure the Achilles heel.. everything is double,, and NO sorry to say a total shit IMO,,

#) If you wanna do it in a proper way,, then i recommend to change all seals,, headgasket , and if the bearings are worn,, replace them.. dont be an idiot and spend money on the vanity parts and not on the parts that is most important for the engine,, main bearings are not expensive,,
here is a picture of the main bearings.. you can see that they are exactly not healthy


but connecting rod bearings cost A LOT,,,,,,, x 24 ,, on mainland EU and in the States you can get a good deal on all parts,, DO not change the pistons at all if everything was ok ..the M70 is a 8.8 CR and if maintenance was good ,,everything should be fine ,, i left the pistons in the block,, took the crank out ,,but you must protect the rods and cylinderwall for scratch etc etc,,so be careful you can use rubberhose like gardenhose etc etc and newspaper!!

this is how the block bottom looks like when crank is out



#)disassembling is easy.. just use your head and assemble again,, mark everything out etc etc,, clean it up and so on,, be aware when taking the oilpump out ,,how it is done ,, there is JUST one way to put it back,,

OILPUMP


cylinderheads are easy,, ,,also the timing case,, as i said, use your head ,, to time in the M70 camshaft.. it is the same tool as used on M40........ but you can make it out of wood.. DEAD EASY.

oem tool.........


I recommend replacing ALL those 6mm bolts and buy them new+shims.. they do NOT have to be oem,in the timing case there are 2 bolts that are 10.9 and they bolt together the inner/upper timing case.. i didnt change the tensioner as it looked like new ,, at least for me,, and the tensioner is not cheap. The intake manifold gasket are without the most expensive gaskets EVER made on a vehicle
the price is to the moon,,,,,, so a guy on bimmerforums.com MAX LUMENS,, created these silicongaskets,,3mm thick to use between head and oem gaskets ((the oem are 3cm thick and made out of rubber that gets hard with time,)) and oem gaskets and manifold,, it explains it self... if you like you can also use gasketseal,, as many do.

silicon gaskets


#)well...... if you will use the oem 4HP24 and oem ECU,, i can not give a detailed info,, except
it will NOT be the most exciting swap EVER....... there are tons of other solutions regarding manual gearbox.. but using other gearboxes request using the M70-4HP24 bellhousing and weld it on that gearbox you are going to use,, here we are talking pro lathe job. and remember.. the V12 and V8 crank share the same bolt pattern at the crank... 9 bolts so you will have to use either a V12 or V8 flywheel
..if you wanna go oem with auto gearbox and ecu ,, go ahead,, but the manual conversion is for those who wanna go ALL IN... and finding a Getrag 560 incl clutch and flywheel is difficult,, extremely difficult,,and the cost is hefty.. but as said,, think and there will be a solution
The G420 V8 tranny is the best option IMO,, to make a M60/M70 bellhousing combo there are many out there and the flange is very very similair to M70.. so i think that option would be easy for the Lathe shop....... remember again about the boltpattern ,,M60 and M70 use the same ,, flexplate for auto transmission

M70 mix........









the M60 is a 90°engine when the M70 is a 60°,, and THATS the main reason that M70 is a direct fit in to the E30 chassis.....

without components outside on the engine it is unbeliveble to see the space around on each side

E30 engine bay with M70.....

[Alpina]

#) engine mounts........ ok the internet went on fire when i posted pictures of my mounts,,




but this is a dead easy work for those who have a tiny skills of ironsmith genetics..
when making the mounts it is a MUST that the front section of the exhaust manifold is on the engine.. i wanted a stainless all the way. so i took it off,, but dont cut it away as i did,, you dont have to...Dont be a wise guy and do it without,,,,,, and if you wanna do it in a clever way.. take all the internal out of the engine.. ((crankshaft.. camshafts etc and tilt the oilpan on again)) the intake manifolds can also go off.. why should you do that....... it is easier to work with less weight and do it before you start to clean out anything,, also.. it is a MUST to lower the subframe by 10- 20mm, i did 20mm and used the 300mm.de idea ,, http://300mm.de/achse25/achse25.htm it is explained there and WHY..........


again,, be aware what kind of rubbermounts will be used,,i used M30.. but M70 is fine, and just keep in mind the clearance for the oilpan ,, above the subframe.. this can be adjusted with heavy duty shims on top of the rubbermounts .. the M70 oilpan sits low ,, so do not lower the car more than average,,do not be an idiot,,or inventor and try to be the smart guy,, read,,i did,, sent pm and mail to those who i had seen doing this swap,, so thats why i can say ,, they knew what to do,, they learned and were willing to tell me what they did right and wrong. .

There is a reason to lower the subframe,, and that is mainly to make clearance for gearbox etc in the tunnel.. and also to have enough space on top of the engine in the engine bay.. the weight of the engine will make up the difference in height,, so dont worry,, i used KW2 and oem M-tech springs...... -- perfect, the transmission must also be bolted on the engine before installing or making the engine brackets on so you can see the firewall clearance,,and the straight direction through the transmission tunnel, for direct position.

Install pictures.... http://www.alpina.123.is/photoalbums/259788/ ,, when making the mounts i recommend to put the engine from top,, and the transmission in from below, but you need to be on a lift doing this,, but when everything is made,, also the transmission mounts .. take the subframe down, bolt the engine on, and drop the car.. it is a lot better to do it that way.. been there done that

Be aware that the space for plumbing the heater rubberhose is extremely tight, if the engine is putted as far as possible.
The instruction are regarding the G560 fitment. it will be similair with all transmission if we just concentrate about the Bellhousing/firewall clearance,, but after that ,, all BMW manual transmissions are smaller so that is no problem at all,,,, the G560 is colossal compared to other Getrag boxes,,
You can see the difference between a G280 from E34 M5 3.8
in this picture thread.. http://www.alpina.123.is/photoalbums/259234/
the 4HP24 is a tiny one but if someone is going to put a M73 with 5HP30,, then we are talking about a 100 kg tranny weight vs 60kg of the G560..((the same as T56)) and the 5hp30 is not big....... it is humongus

#) brakebooster........... well ,, is there a solution that suits all ?? perhaps but IMO there are 2 that will work fine ,, i did the oem way... took the 750 master.. shortened the shaft that goes in to the car.. and put some shims UNDER the right side of the bolts.. so it directs a little to the left

why ???

to make space of clearance regarding left side cylinderhead.. and then you will see why !!!!!! if you use the 750 master ,, the engine MUST GO IN FIRST





the other solution ,, and i recommend to do that, if someone have the balls.. and that is doing inside car brake booster delete/manual .. aka MASSIVE LEE or V8 conversion INCAR... i think i will do a manual brake conversion next year.. i do not recommend at ALL to put the V8 booster in front on the left side as on V8 swap,, you will have to delete the ABS ((if the car is equipped with abs)) and the space for intake air-box is totally gone .. I used the E32/34 V8 brakefluid box,, and i recommend using that.. the picture explain everything !

#) Wiring............ well i dont know shit about it,, but there are so many out there that can read the E30 blueprints and figure it out how to do it,, on standalone it is dead easy ,,
I used just 1. oem M70 CPS ((there are 2 on M70)).. on M70 there are 2 fuel pumps,, i used the oem E30 325,, it worked well on my S38B38 swap and it delivers way more than enough
As i said,, i wanted to do it my way ,, and used 2x6 cyl coils from a FORD Explorer SUV.. but you can use whatever coils you want. from a 6 cyl engine with wasted spark coil,
i bought 50 ft of MSD 8.5mm spark plug wire .. and the fittings for FORD coils and to BMW plugs....... you need a special clamp to do this job



the loom for injectors was used,, we used the oem heat sensors in the manifold.. and put 2 MAP sensors just above them.. we also used just one of the manifold temp sensors,, my friend Baldur Gíslason is a Mega-Squirt MASTER GENIUS,,




that bloke have unreal skills to do these car electronic things. I did oem electronic THROTTLEBODY delete.. and is running manual.. this is not hard to do
but do it right,, and it will work fine,, you must make some kinds of adjustable screws to syncronize the throttlebody,,




and here we have a TPS from a chevy modded on the left bank on the engine.. but remember,, left manifold is for right bank,,and right manifold for left bank.. you will just need 1 TPS





Here is what i did,, to make the throttlebody MANUAL......... i welded on the outside,, a cableholder from a japanese car,, got 2 sets.. took it of ,, welded and thats it
NOTA BENE..... the throttlebodies opens in an opposite way

this system is not the best looking around,, but it works.....inside the 8 cm aluwheel .. there is a 8mm bearing that the bolts go through







if you go oem,, then remember the electonic gaspedal+cable.. also if you use a manual transmission on oem ECU that was made for an automatic car ..the ecu must be disengaged in somehow way to know that the car is been manual.. so the torque curve will be okey,, not just like reving in neutral

[Alpina]

#) WATER/cooling ......... okey.. here is a dilemma,, it all depends on engine position,, my radiator is very thin.. and in front of the engine,, and i use oem E34 540 AC fan in front of the radiator ... and listen to this,, i did a comparison between a spal ..similair size and the BMW E34 540 AC fan cooled a lot better in my case ((with the S38B38))
there is a lot of space outside the car in front,, so there is no problem to put a HUGE radiator in there and the fan behind,,or in front but i guess that ,,the radiator must have some custom intake pipes









#) BELT DRIVE........ alright.. i wanted to have a SINGLE BELT drive,, so i went to my friend who is a turner,, and his Lathe skills made this waterpump wheel and the fit is now the same for .. outercrank belt... alternator,, and hydraulic pump............... BUT i had to think more than twice how to get the pulley to work.. so i made by myself a simple solution ,, 2 iron metalplates .. bolted together and a beltdrive bearing ... VOILA.......
If you will use the AC pump.. then everything explains .. 2 belts,, 2 pulleys all oem ,,inner and outer beltdrive...but the pump will steal power,, except you MUST have a AC working

This is how it is oem,,,,,,,,,,, oilpump and alternator


here you can see how litle contact the belt was getting to the crank wheel,, so a modification was needed


dadaa,,,,,,,, it works,,,,,







#)OILFEED......... this is basic.. BUT,, regarding space it is a MUST to use M70 facelift oilfilter housing or V8 E38/39...... housings

WHY??

because early M70 oilfilter housing is like double in height vs the newer version and it is almost impossible to fit it in side.. you must also have to change/modify the oil lines from oilfilterhouse to the engine.. i recommend that this is made out of steelflex pipes or heat protectet
ALL oil/hydraulic lines in the engine bay should be heat protected IMO.. M70 generates lots of heat
and all lubrication lines are on the left side,, were normally on IL6 there are no exhaust pipes
If the oem 750 master is used,, there are MANY oil lines.. and you also need an regulator+accumulator,, a good option IMO is to use E23 or E28 ((M30)) Accumulator with inbuilt regulator.. i also used steelflex FUEL lines for heat protection,, remember to connect ,, the right way.

here is a link to the oil lines etc etc etc......http://www.alpina.123.is/photoalbums/261430/

#) Driveline......... it explains it self,, i think the solution is the same for every swap..
but i am positive that the shaft must be customized by a turner..

My shaft.........









If you will use the tranny that suits your idea,, then get the shaft also from that tranny,,
I had to custom made the end of the shaft that went on the gearbox.. was turned out of a solid steel axle.. as it was not in the purchase deal
Again,, remember if using whatever transmission if manual.. you MUST use the M70 automatic bellhousing to get the gearbox to fit the engine,, it have been done some times on kitcar projects ,, and is no problem at all for the right folks ,, turner.. lathe shop


If there is ANYTHING you need,, you can contact me at ..........alpinabiturbo@gmail.com
or call me at +3546962021 ((GMT time))

i wish you all the best

kind regards

[jalopi]

got any videos of the car running/driving? good compilation of the build thread BTW, i'm sure someone will find this very useful

[Alpina]

There are some videos,, the engine running,,, nothing great
its winter now so i will wait to spring !!!!!!!

[LJ851]

Awesome thread! Thank you for documenting this info.

[itsonlygeorge]

Can you post a clip of it running?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CorvallisBMW]

Wow, how did I miss this??? Amazing!

[Alpina]

Is it possible for those concerned to do this sticky,,

if anyone would get a similar idea,, it would help that person,,

here is a bad sound clip..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR_v41mKTvI

[Doughnut]

those who hesitate they masterbate,,

truth!!

[Nesset]

Sounds so gnarly. Love the swap. Mad props to you. Not a easy one for sure.

[Alpina]

I am changing the cooling system,, new radiator and 2 fan,, one blowing and one sucking

i will post pictures soon

[613EDRTY]

Cool build, cant wait to see it finished!

[nsxguy7]

Awesome work and nice job. There is a gent in Canada that makes a complete standalone for the M70. He uses GM coil packs and throttle bodies. About $1300 for the whole set up. If you Google choice auto wiring it should pop right up. Cool video of it running on the bench...

[Alpina]

I like these GM throttle bodies